People care more about dog ownership than people becoming parents?

[ElektraAbundance]

This has always had me wondering as both a dog owner and parent.

Ive noticed how having a baby is actively encouraged by lots of people. Colleagues, family members, friends etc. People ask other if they want kids, that they’ll make a great mum/dad etc.

This is regardless of living in a small house/flat, being skint, poor mental health or being in an early on relationship.
I remember years ago saying to someone me and DP wouldn’t be having a baby until we’d moved somewhere bigger and we’re met with ‘It’s fine, I had 3 kids in a 1 bed flat at one point. You make room’ and about finances ‘you just manage.’

On the flip side, if someone even thinks about getting a dog, it is so discouraged.

It’s met with:
Thats a lot of work!
Their expensive!
You work full time?!
You have to walk them everyday!
Your house/garden is too small
Its a huge commitment

As though having a baby isn’t any of those things or less of a commitment.

If people put as much thought into having a baby as they did dog ownership the world would be a very different place.
Why is this?

You can have a dog at any point in your life, but really you only have a specific window of time when you can (more easily) have a baby.

You often have to compromise on things if you want to get going and have a baby (eg career, money, home). But you can put off having a dog until you’re in a more dog friendly time/position in life. So people are less likely to hurry you in to it.

this thread reminded me of this

YANBU

Having a pet is seen as a luxury, having a child is seen as an entitlement or a 'right'

When their small flat becomes overcrowded it's the fault of the council, when they can't afford a 3rd or 4th kid but go on to have it anyway and are barely scraping by, it's the fault of the government. Always someone else to blame other than themselves - can't pass the blame when it comes to dogs, you see.

People don’t generally alter their lives to fit in having a pet. Eg become a stay at home pet owner, having a nanny etc. so have a pet if it fits around your lifestyle as it is unfair on the pet.

I was a sahm for a decade and only got a dog when I knew that I would be working from home most of the time.

I am childfree so I don't like or condone 'encouragement' to have children - it should be the individual's decision, it's no one else's business. I'm past an age where anyone would comment but it was very annoying when I was in my 30s.

Having said that - specifically versus dog ownership - society is geared to support the 80% of women who do have children in that there are always child friendly places, you can take your child about with you in daily life, there is maternity leave and funding towards childcare. Free healthcare. I

n other words, there is state and societal support for childbearing. None of that applies to dog ownership - you are on your own with medicalexpenses and so on, you can't take your dog everywhere, you have to pay for dog sitting and so on. So while it isn't a greater commitment, it is a different commitment, with different caveats.

Yess this is what I’m saying!!

You hold a baby and coo at it, everyone is like ‘your a natural, you’d make a great mother! You going to have one?’

You pet a dog and that’s it. You’ve pet a dog.

It doesn’t matter if your in a 1 bed flat and unable to save a penny, you’ve smiled at a baby. You love kids. Just have one in your precarious circumstances.

YANBU.

Many, many, many people could do with giving far more consideration to if they really want to become a parent, can cope, can afford it etc. rather than doing it because it's what you do, get married, have babies... 🙄

But that then insinuates everyone’s entitled to a baby regardless of circumstances because of the biological clock. But that’s bonkers.

If you haven’t got savings, stability or appropriate housing then surely it doesn’t matter what age you are, your not secure enough to have a child right now?

We recognise that when it comes to pets but not actual human beings?

I completely get what you mean OP. Of course, having a child is a biological urge for many in a way that having a dog clearly isn’t, but our decision to stop at one has been met with incredulity with many people who insist that you need at least 2 or 3 kids to be a ‘proper family’ regardless of time constraints, finances, physical/mental health issues and so on. Often it isn’t even because they want their existing child to have a sibling - it’s simply that 2 or 3 kids is ‘what you do’.

When thinking about children we considered all the eventualities and cut our cloth according to what we could comfortably manage in a way that (I’ve only recently begun to realise) the vast majority of people don’t. We’d also like a dog eventually, but will be similarly cautious about this decision. I appreciate that life happens, and sometimes things don’t go according to plan, but as far as possible I believe that all life choices involving other living things deserve to be thought about carefully.

I was always asked when I was going to have children. and was their something wrong with me, when I didn’t.

For a lot of people pets are a child replacement and unfortunately treat their pet, as such. Nothing more annoying, to me, than someone calling a pet a “fur baby”! are treated as such and are not given boundaries and then rehomed due to bad behaviour

I do have pets, who are loved and cared for, like the animals they are. They are not replacement children.

It’s easier to have a dog than a baby for most people?

You can leave your dog home alone to go out shopping or a meal (can’t a baby).

Doggy daycare or a dog walker is half the price or less than childcare even with UC.

Give a dog daily walks and food and it’s fine. You can’t give a baby a walk and food and then go off shopping.

If you have poor mental health you can skip a dog walk that day and just cuddle them on the sofa or stay in bed all day. With a 2 year old? No chance.

It’s easier to accompany a dog into your life than an actual baby. A baby doesn’t stay a baby either so you may be able to look after a baby but a toddler? A child? A teenager?

I just think theres a lot more thought that goes into having a dog by everyone (dog owner and society) than it does an actual human being.

People do need to seriously think whether they can afford (in all ways) to take on the responsibility of a pet.

Really, those should be things considered before deciding to have a child, but yes I have definitely seen people in precarious if not dire situations encouraged to have one because ‘you’ll manage’, and ‘all a child needs is love’.

I’ve never heard those things about having children. I would tell mine to ensure they’re financially stable and have a committed relationship before kids-not exactly controversial. Certainly not about making room etc-I’d be horrified if my 23 yr old dd talked about having babies!

You can leave your dog home alone to go out shopping or a meal (can’t a baby)

You can't get a dog and immediately leave it home alone. A puppy can only be left for very short periods to begin with. Even an adult dog needs careful training to avoid separation anxiety, destructiveness in your absence, and toilet training. Even after training, you shouldn't leave a dog alone for more than about 4 hours. Whereas a baby can be taken with you more or less anywhere.

Doggy daycare or a dog walker is half the price or less than childcare even with UC.

A dog might live 15 years or more, and will need daycare etc. for all that time whenever it is left. Your child will be looked after at school once s/he is 5 years plus; by the time the child is in their teens, they can be left alone safely.

Give a dog daily walks and food and it’s fine. You can’t give a baby a walk and food and then go off shopping.

Your idea of dog ownership is naive. Dogs need training and stimulation - and, being a different species, they don't pick up things instinctively as a child would.

If you have poor mental health you can skip a dog walk that day and just cuddle them on the sofa or stay in bed all day.

You can if you want a carpet covered in piss and shit and your dog tearing round the house like a loon because it hasn't had its exercise

It’s easier to accompany a dog into your life than an actual baby. A baby doesn’t stay a baby either so you may be able to look after a baby but a toddler? A child? A teenager?`

Swings and roundabouts. A dog is a permanent 'infant' - as said previously, it won't grow up to do more and more for itself, as a child does - it reaches adulthood and stays there, in a state of dependency.

I think it depends on which groups you talk to...

I know plenty of people who plan having a baby to the nth degree, would never push anyone, never say 'well you manage', I hear 'it's not the right time' a lot re. babies.

And I deal with the fall out of so so many people who didn't think having a dog was almost as much work as having a baby, got one on a whim, thought they could just leave it immediately and are now finding they've hit problems.

Of course a lot of those people sell the dog on or dump it on a rescue, something thats not typically an option with a baby!

So I wish far more people would put the time and energy into planning a puppy that they do in planning a baby.

In reality, there are those who will have a puppy OR a baby without any real thought or care about how they're going to meet that puppy/childs needs.

And there are people who think things through, behave responsibly, regardless of whether its a puppy or a baby.

Depending on what you do, the circles you move in, the groups you're a part of, you'll probably see more of one group than another.

I've never encouraged anyone to have a child or a dog, as I intensely dislike both.

You aren't wrong, though.

You’re completely right. And it’s a common refrain on here that no one regrets a baby, there’s never a good time so just go for it, it doesn’t matter if the dad is useless or has disappeared, you’re skint, have no stable housing, no support - crack on hun, nothing will make you happy like a squishy baby, it’ll all be fiiiiine cos babies…

Children deserve better. Babies turn into children, teens and adults.

I don’t know much about dog ownership but you can rehome one if you need to a lot easier than a child.

4 years after I had my oldest, I had a somewhat acceptable conversation partner and limited help with tidying up and small chores. Then he got a full time job in reception class and occupied himself for most of the work day.
4 years after I got my mad rescue dog he still throws tantrums at the postie, leaves toys all over the floor and can't sleep in his own bed.
Both of them have been expelled from daycare for biting, but only the former has shown any improvement.

Oh god yes - childfree by choice here with a much loved dog that we did lots of research and planning for and got told to 'relax, you'll figure it out'
Which is what people say about having kids...

Literally thousands of dogs get rehomed, resold, abandoned and surrendered each year because people didnt do enough planning or research or werent able to commit the time/money the dog needed. This 'you'll figure it out' attitude bugs me so much. Its a LIFE. Maybe if more people did a bit more bloody planning and research before they had kids we wouldnt have so many adults knocking around who've been fucked up by their parents. It baffles me that i was made to feel like i was going over the top by doing lots of research and planning into a life id be responsible for. And people have this attitude about babies!

I dont see parenthood as a right, sorry. Its a privilege. That should be taken bloody seriously and have a lot of thought put into it before embarking on it. Not 'its what you do' or 'oops, pregnant - might as well keep it'
And it annoys the life of me that i get pressure to have kids off random strangers when i politely respond 'im not a fan of kids' i get told 'oh its different when its your own'
If you dont want kids, you arent the right type of person to have kids?? Yeah everyone knows someone who wasnt keen and had a baby and turned out to love it but noone seems to draw the connection between this attitude and the many neglect, abuse, abandonment or indifferent cases that are out there.

(Disclaimer - obviously not talking about people who dont feel like they can personally abort, are being forced to go through with a pregnancy via an abusive partner etc etc etc)

You're absolutely right, OP.

Babies are encouraged in any situation, and people here spout 'there's no right time! Do it! You'll work it out!'

But if someone asked about getting a puppy if they had no garden, no money and no space then they'd be totally flamed!

Dog owners are utterly outraged if you don't have a schedule of exercise and enrichment and have years of experience.

But a baby? Nah, just do it, it'll be fine!

I think people are someone's more encouraging with babies as the person might already be pregnant.
Happened at work person A says she's pregnant, person B who is a friend not just a colleague and knows that As circumstances are not conducive to this especially in terms of her relationship, responded with a hug and, oh God no are you ok? A responded yes!! I'm over the moon. Then there was a bit of shouting from A and they're not that close anymore...
if you tell someone you think it's a bad idea to have a puppy they'll get over it

If you haven’t got savings, stability or appropriate housing then surely it doesn’t matter what age you are, your not secure enough to have a child right now?

I don’t think anyone should be encouraged to have a child or asked when they’re going to have children. It’s up to the individual and there shouldn’t be external pressure.

But, yes, it does matter what age you are. There comes a point where it’s not possible to wait to build up your savings, or to move to a bigger home. These things take time. And if you wait out that time then you might lose your chance for having children at all.

Whereas a dog - if you don’t have a garden in your 40s, there’s still your 50s & 60s when you might. It’s possible to wait.

It is the nature of living things to procreate. It is much more recent in evolutionary terms, and much less necessary for the species, to have pets. We are animals. Of course it is more important/natural/encouraged to have children.

Plus, as pp said, parents do usually make adjustments for children in a way they don't/can't for pets. I don't plan to leave my baby on his own for a few hours in the house when I return to work, and he doesn't require outdoor space in which to poop, for example.

Having seen the havoc that a dog can wreak on a household (in three separate cases), including a dog which you absolutely could not leave on its own for any period of time, I do feel more inclined to say that dogs are/can be, incredibly difficult and not for everyone. Especially with the amount of poorly trained bloody poodle mix dogs you see at the moment.

How many times on here do we see the OP struggling with the decision to have the 2,3,4 child because of <insert problem here> but you get choruses of don’t worry you’ll figure it out, there’s never a right time so just go for it, etc
Circumstances do change but if there are issues from the get go why bring an innocent human into a toxic environment??

One of the main issues is money, then people will say so only the rich should reproduce...no of course not but at least be in a financially STABLE position. Another is a useless partner, some hope they change as soon as the partner becomes a parent or that a child will fix the relationship, rarely does that happen.

There was a thread here not too long ago asking what type of mother are you? A lot of the answers were they are just good enough. I don’t have children but if I did I wouldn’t want to be just enough, giving my child food, shelter basic human rights? I would want to be amazing mother and be able to give them the moon (not just speaking financially but my time, support, etc) That’s why I won’t have a child because I’m not able to give them the moon. I will always be the just enough.

.....and now running away from the abuse I’m about the receive!