People care more about dog ownership than people becoming parents?

[ElektraAbundance]

This has always had me wondering as both a dog owner and parent.

Ive noticed how having a baby is actively encouraged by lots of people. Colleagues, family members, friends etc. People ask other if they want kids, that they’ll make a great mum/dad etc.

This is regardless of living in a small house/flat, being skint, poor mental health or being in an early on relationship.
I remember years ago saying to someone me and DP wouldn’t be having a baby until we’d moved somewhere bigger and we’re met with ‘It’s fine, I had 3 kids in a 1 bed flat at one point. You make room’ and about finances ‘you just manage.’

On the flip side, if someone even thinks about getting a dog, it is so discouraged.

It’s met with:
Thats a lot of work!
Their expensive!
You work full time?!
You have to walk them everyday!
Your house/garden is too small
Its a huge commitment

As though having a baby isn’t any of those things or less of a commitment.

If people put as much thought into having a baby as they did dog ownership the world would be a very different place.
Why is this?

YANBU. No one around me seems to have put any thought into having their children, it's just done. My own birth included, resulting in an awful childhood.

My mum thinks that if you happen to have disabled child "God will help you. He gave you this child knowing you can handle". Just big LOL. We can't use excuses that it's natural instinct for humankind to survive- there is a reason why our brains are so developed... to use them 🙄

Yes and the ‘acting’ should be to be responsible and accept you may not get what you want as what you want is an actual human.

I don’t for one second think you should only have a baby if your rich and married to an amazing perfect human being with endless unlimited support at your disposable.

But realistic practical stability is a NEED for a human being.

secure and adequate housing
access to financial resources
mentally stable parents
Parents stable employment/income

You know, the kinds of things you think about before becoming a dog owner let alone a parent.

It doesn’t matter if your 40 or 25, children still need those things.

@OP83 excellent post!! Pretty much sums it all up!

@CatJumperTwat agree. I really do despair at those threads. Or the threads that say ‘DH doesn’t want baby number 3 because we don’t have room, can’t afford and we’ve only just recovered from dealing with terrible toddler years and he doesn’t think he can do it again.’
Then there’s the responses of ‘well my 3rd has completed our family, my DP came around and yours will too once he meets the baby.’

Why on earth would anyone take a gamble with something like that? Especially when your not even in the situation to suitably provide for a third so it should be a moot point anyway.

But realistic practical stability is a NEED for a human being.

secure and adequate housing
access to financial resources
mentally stable parents
Parents stable employment/income

I agree with you in principle, I do think the accepted degree to which all of these are met are probably at different levels to both of us.

What do you mean, for example, by access to financial resources? Because to me that means being able to cover housing, bills and food. Anything more than that and you’re once again going down the ‘poor people shouldn’t be allowed to have children’ route.

Access to financial resources to means being able to meet the financial needs of a child. I’m not talking about extracurricular activities or consoles. I mean food, housing, transport, clothing.

If you can’t meet those needs then no a child shouldn’t be considered until you can.
Because having a child isn’t a right and entitlement regardless of circumstances.

Circumstances can and do change once a baby is already born which can’t be helped but a baby shouldn’t be actively encouraged until these things are place in the first place.

That’s fair enough and I’m glad you did. It obviously isn’t a set rule - I grew up in a wealthy family and suffered from emotionally abusive and neglectful addict parents. But I’m be concerned if a friend was thinking of having a baby in a one bed flat. There’d need to be the potential for moving once the baby was old enough to need its own space, and that often isn’t the case because if money is already tight then a child doesn’t exactly help - it limits job opportunities, comes with significant expenses, etc.

As I said, I’m not convinced that “not the end of the world” is my right bar for the decision.

Children usually and eventually grow up to be adults, leave home, and be independent. Dogs do not.

When heavily pregnant, someone asked me if I had a dog. I said, "oh no, I'm not responsible enough to have a dog". Thry gave my bump a hard stare.

I think I probably meant it. I'm an absolute adequate parent. Babies are cute and I was perfectly capable of dealing with the needy, but can't really explain themselves stage for a couple of years and nursery was great at filling in the gaps like messy play. Now my kids are older they can tell me what they want/need and can do some stuff for themselves, if they can't persuade me to. Dogs are perpetual babies. I like dogs, but one would need walking/doggie daycare for 12ish years. We do have pets, but not ones that need as much input as a dog.

I agree with your premise but if you are seriously saying you have to have appropriate housing and savings etc you are talking no lower income working class having kids, ever. Unless you live in a very deprived area it is highly unlikely carer's, teaching assistants and retail or hospitality workers could afford children. And society needs more of these than people who can save etc. Ultimately it doesn't work.

People don't kill themselves because they can't get a pet, they do about infertility.

I genuinely do feel for those people, I can’t imagine how heartbreaking it is. However if someone has threatened suicide due to not being able to have a child....should they really have a child? If the state of your mental health is so bad that you would contemplate ending your life, that’s not an home to bring a baby into.

Like I previously said there are things you should provide to a child that goes beyond basic human rights of food and shelter. Physical & mental health of the parents are also important. Too many times school going kids take on the responsibility of caring for their parents.

I know that people keep pets as emotional supports (I’m on the fence regarding this as they do help their owners with their mental health but obviously we’ll never know the impact on the pet), however using your child as an emotional or physical support is so much worse.

@dixiechix Nailed it. And I say this as someone who is both infertile and has serious MH issues. Sometimes the best thing overall is not to have a child, even if it hurts.

If there was one thing a child needs {from both mother and father..it's this.

{Quote} '' Mentally stable parents ''

The most secure and happy families do have very mentally healthy parents.

When one asks about the childhoods of these paragons, they say ''Oh I had a lovely childhood''

Wealth was not needed.
A beautiful house was not needed
But stability and love.. and absence of fear.

Too many dysfunctional people have children, and pass the chaos and fear down the line.

''This be the verse'' sums it up beautifully.

*They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had

And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn

By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern

And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.

It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,

And don’t have any kids yourself.*

Often in the years they are growing up they cause lots of stress and worry. They are often responsible for a marriage/relationship breaking down. They usually cost a fortune.

Dogs don't cause (usually) anything like the worry. You don't worry about them making friends, getting pregnant, smoking, taking drugs etc. They don't cost anywhere near as much money as they don't need clothes, do hobbies, need as much food, go to Uni, want to learn to drive.

I think dogs are far less hassle and, often, much nicer than children

@Boomboom22 well no you can be a low earner and be mentally stable, in a healthy relationship with adequate housing.

Adequate housing isn’t a 4 bed detached house.

A 2 bedroom flat is fine. Bedroom for kids and one for parents.
Yes you can’t have 3 kids sharing a bedroom in a 2 bed flat. But not many people can afford for 3 kids.

But if you can only afford a 1 bed studio then no you can’t afford a child at that moment in time.

Like I said, if someone said ‘I’m thinking of getting a puppy’ but they live in the a studio flat you’d discourage them. Tell them what a dog requires. Point out finances, space, time, housing situation etc. why aren’t children offered that same courtesy?

@HerMajestysRoyalCoven Sorry to hear of your struggles. But massive props to you for acknowledging your personal situation and circumstances and being responsible for them.

I love animals but you can’t really compare babies and animals 🙈 You are being unreasonable
I think people make sure you thought it through as way too many animals get abandoned when owners change their mind.

That's exactly the point though isn't it? Lots of animals get abandoned because people didn't think the decision through or they find it interferes with their life so they selfishly reject it...and this is often WITH due thought.

Now replace the animal with a human life that you can't (typically and reasonably reject), lives far longer, is far more demanding on your time and resources...and people are encouraged to just 'make it work' (because 'babies').

It's a disaster waiting to happen in so many instances.

Really? I think people do both without actually thinking through the practicality of things. So many people who know nothing about dogs get puppies and it's cruel. At least when you have children there's some support systems in place to help you, even if it's just child benefit.

I think the same about children and mortgages. When I applied for a 25 year mortgage, I had to think 25 years ahead about the risks and jumped through every hoop going with evidence I was fit for one. Could I manage it if one of us died, lost our jobs or if some other financial disaster happened? If I can’t pay the mortgage and haven’t planned for that, the house gets repossessed.

But countless people have 2 or 3 children without having any savings or contingency plans for if they lose their job or if a partner dies etc etc. There seems to be a bit of an irresponsible ‘what will be will be - we’ll deal with it if it happens’ attitude because the personal desire to have children trumps common sense and practicalities.

I guess we all just touch wood and hope for the best.

Really? I think people do both without actually thinking through the practicality of things.

Well yes, that's the point of the thread. People judge and berate you for getting a puppy if you haven't thought it all through and done a load of preparation, but if you have a baby on a hope and prayer it's all "Congratulations! Everything will work out fine."