Dynamic in DSs class - toxic masculinity?

[BeatieBourke]

I don't know if I'm being a bit PFB or fussy about this, but it gives me a bad feeling and makes me a bit sad.

DS is 7. He goes to the nearest village primary. The school is decent, the teaching is good and the atmosphere generally seems caring, warm and supportive. It's quite a small school with only one class of 25 in each year group.

DS is football mad. This is random as we're not a sporty family, don't watch football or support a team. He just absolutely loves it, and is genuinely weirdly good at it. All the parents assume we must be egging him on to be the best, but apart from him enjoying himself we don't really give a shit about how good he is.

Lots of the boys in his class are also football mad. Some of them also play in his team with the local club. At a recent parents evening, his teacher mentioned that shes never had such a football mad class, its very competitive and hierarchical, and hard for the kids that aren't that into it. They play football every break and lunch time. I don't think this is healthy.

DS has recently started talking about having big muscles, being the strongest, who's got the fastest cars, what everyone's dad's do for a job, who's the toughest. You get the drift.

I don't think DS is an angelic innocent in this dynamic. He is competitive, and it seems the highly prized things happen to play to his strengths (although we do not have big muscles, or any money, and drive an absolute skip!). But I don't like the way this dynamic in his class is going. His teacher also commented that, unusually, all the boys play as one big group all the time. There are no individual little friendships and kids going off at lunch to play different games in different corners of the field. It sounds quite an intense pack mentality.

We are not like this and dont talk this at home. DH is in no way an alpha male. He is a quite unassuming strong and silent type. He's artistic, mild mannered, and doesn't give a shit about money, cars or status (luckily!). I can't help but feel that all this status stuff at school is shaping DS and what he thinks other people value. I'm worried about his friendships as he goes through school.

I'm thinking of putting him into another out of school activity to broaden his interests. Beyond that I don't know what to do about the friendship thing.

IANBU - boys and class dynamics don't have to be like this and we & teachers should do something.

IABU - Im being a PFB pratt, this is what happens in school and all kids go through it to some degree. Keep him on the right track and he won't grow up as a status obsessed thug with body dysmorphia.

My Dnephew is very like this as is his class and similarly his parents not at all. He is quite a driven child and very very able academically. I think trying a new activity could be a good step?

Thanks for your response. I'm thinking something less competitive - Scouts? Or music lessons (house full of instruments), or art club? What do other people do with the 7 year olds?

I think you're being a bit ridiculous and a bit snobby to be honest

3 kids through primary and my youngest is the only one who had a class like you described. Your ds enjoys it and let him play as you have. You will shape him as parents. Talk to him about your values.

Perhaps introduce another hobby like cubs outside of school to make more diverse friends.

They will eventually splinter off in to groups , they aren't harming anyone and just being kids really
My dad bigger than your dad kind of thing , girls do it too
Just so happens the teacher has a footie group , another year group may all be pokemon etc , others mixed
But at 7 there all finding their interests etc
But other activities and friendships are always good
Mine played football and rugby and have friends from both that they weren't at school with and they have a nice mix of mates

Do both if affordable. Music lesson once a week and cubs once a week. Mine do both some perhaps I'm bias lol.

Sounds to me like all the boys are bonding around sports and the related status stuff of famous footballers.
No one seems to be left behind or bullied, so I’m going to say YABU.

You sound very worried about status. To be honest, if your DS has found something he enjoys, why make it a problem? It'll have its challenges in time and then you can draw on your value system to support him - e.g. when he feels he's let his team down, feels angry with a team mate, wants to dispute the ref, is injured, had a bad game etc etc etc. Meanwhile, he's active and he's social. He's also picking up stuff from his peer group. It doesn't mean it'll stick.

I think you are overthinking this. Quite a lot!

Yeah, I wonder if I'm being a bit snobby too tbh. Is it snobby to not want your 7 year old to want to be a macho man? Maybe, I dunno.

I was a massively nerdy kid, quite shy and not competitive or sporty at all. While I obviously don't want him to be shy and awkward, I sometimes struggle to know how to parent this kid that's so, so different from me in lots of ways. I mean, he's brilliant and I love the bones of him, but I'm trying to teach him to navigate a world I've never experienced.

It's very common for many or most boys to all hang out together and play football or other sports at most breaks - one of my DSs is not sporty at all and struggled a bit because of this. I'd expect there will be at least 1 or 2 who don't, but in the scheme of things they don't get noticed much, especially by another child who is football mad.

I think it can be easier to lean into it and channel the energy. My football mad one has also loved designing football-based board games, reads lots of books based around it, and has loved trying to teach the rest of us to do keepy uppy and score goals. He's also made a lot of friends and learned a lot about being a good winner and loser and working as part of a team, it's got lots of great things going for it.

For other activities, again it helps to go with what he likes. Street dance was a hit with one of mine (and you can argue the agility is good for football), another refused to play an orchestra instrument but does love messing about on the keyboard and is doing a music composition club via the school.

If he's one of the best, the biggest/strongest dynamic is likely driven either by he or one of his friends. Can be worth having them over and hearing, and encouraging more visits with the kids who seem a bit more balanced. You can also try to keep your own reaction calm and laugh at it a bit - 'toxic masculinity' is a bit dramatic for this age, better to laugh a little and say conspiratorially how silly some people are to talk like that, and/or that it's sad when people feel they have to compare, maybe they feel small inside.
At this age, when you still do have some influence and ability to control, and if your son is sporty, popular and has caring parents he'll likely do just fine.

I agree.
They're only little. In a few months time it could all change. Loads of 7 year old boys love football, but a couple of years later half of them have moved on to something else. They're just finding their feet, it's normal. Don't turn his behaviour into a pathology.
I'm a single parent of 2 football mad boys. I was awful at team sports at school, truly awful. We now have season tickets to our local club and every day involves some sort of football activity. You just have to roll with it.

To me it sounds like you're a bit disappointed that he's laddish rather than an arty, middle class type.

Your child is happy at lunchtimes and always has children to play with at school. And if he's got a competitive nature, football is a good outlet for that before the bell goes and he has to get back to reading and writing and maths. I would be happy with the situation.

I'm pretty working class. I probably am a bit disappointed at the idea of him being "laddish" though.i realise that's not a great attitude for me to have (and I'd never express it anywhere else. A lot of my family's working class identity was about standing up for the underdog.

Yabu
Does your son like Guinness Book of Records, Top Trumps like many kids do? Have you ever watched sport commentary on tv? Even before more MC sports like tennis, there's analysis of the statistics like which players got the most first serves in etc GBR is a popular book with kids as they are often interested in who is the tallest, who can swim the fastest etc It's not toxic to want to win or be the best at something.
Toxic is when the boys shun the boy who missed the goal or act like losing their lunchtime kick about is akin to losing the World Cup. If all the boys are playing together then that is a good thing imo.

Humans are competitive, its normal.

If it starts being toxic, well thats different but nothing you've said about your son and his friends sounds like that to me.

Just be happy he’s happy, is playing with friends and enjoying school.

I think it’s an age thing. My DNephew was a bit like this.

A good idea to maybe join a different club also, or to take up an instrument, but the key is your values at home - demonstrate respect towards women and girls, be gentle, discourage boasting. I’m sure it’ll be fine.

Maybe toxic was the wrong word to use.

It's not the sport so much. But having big muscles? Isn't that akin to a 7 year old girl talking about her weight? That would worry me too.

It's very sad that you are trying to dampen his enthusiasm for football by introducing new clubs (and presumably hoping that his prefers those ) There is nothing wrong with your son being passionate about football when his parents aren't. Would you feel this way if he was into reading or running?

I don't want to dampen his enthusiasm for football at all. His club is brilliant, the coaches are really good role models, amazing with the kids, he's made good friends outside of school. I'm actually quite evangelical about how great grassroots football is!

I suppose I do want him to have a balance of interests.

He does like other things. History, space, maths, drawing. But football is currency at school.

This thread makes me see that I'm worrying about nothing, as I suspected (hence my post).

Trust me OP, if he continues to love football you'll be glad of it. When all his friends are glued to their xboxes, you'll be glad you've got a child who has a passion that doesn't necessitate a screen. My boys (17 and 13) spend plenty of time on screens, as do all their friends, but they still get out in the fresh air and run around. I'm very glad of their footy passion.

Absolutely agree

My DS had a short phase where it seemed to be about finding their place in the pack. It passed.
Being really worthy, I used it as a chance to discuss why some things were valued more than other. Why do we admire people who had expensive cars? What does it say about them? About us? Would your view changed if you found out they had a massive loan on it? What would you rather have - a ridiculously expensive car, a holiday each year, a slightly bigger house etc. With muscles, it was a discussion about how he must put a lot of effort into looking like that and when would he do it. But also how important it is to be healthy, how it might be a way of relaxing and that sort of thing. I wasn't stopping DS from admiring these things but I wanted him to question what he was admiring and why.