Dynamic in DSs class - toxic masculinity?

[BeatieBourke]

I don't know if I'm being a bit PFB or fussy about this, but it gives me a bad feeling and makes me a bit sad.

DS is 7. He goes to the nearest village primary. The school is decent, the teaching is good and the atmosphere generally seems caring, warm and supportive. It's quite a small school with only one class of 25 in each year group.

DS is football mad. This is random as we're not a sporty family, don't watch football or support a team. He just absolutely loves it, and is genuinely weirdly good at it. All the parents assume we must be egging him on to be the best, but apart from him enjoying himself we don't really give a shit about how good he is.

Lots of the boys in his class are also football mad. Some of them also play in his team with the local club. At a recent parents evening, his teacher mentioned that shes never had such a football mad class, its very competitive and hierarchical, and hard for the kids that aren't that into it. They play football every break and lunch time. I don't think this is healthy.

DS has recently started talking about having big muscles, being the strongest, who's got the fastest cars, what everyone's dad's do for a job, who's the toughest. You get the drift.

I don't think DS is an angelic innocent in this dynamic. He is competitive, and it seems the highly prized things happen to play to his strengths (although we do not have big muscles, or any money, and drive an absolute skip!). But I don't like the way this dynamic in his class is going. His teacher also commented that, unusually, all the boys play as one big group all the time. There are no individual little friendships and kids going off at lunch to play different games in different corners of the field. It sounds quite an intense pack mentality.

We are not like this and dont talk this at home. DH is in no way an alpha male. He is a quite unassuming strong and silent type. He's artistic, mild mannered, and doesn't give a shit about money, cars or status (luckily!). I can't help but feel that all this status stuff at school is shaping DS and what he thinks other people value. I'm worried about his friendships as he goes through school.

I'm thinking of putting him into another out of school activity to broaden his interests. Beyond that I don't know what to do about the friendship thing.

IANBU - boys and class dynamics don't have to be like this and we & teachers should do something.

IABU - Im being a PFB pratt, this is what happens in school and all kids go through it to some degree. Keep him on the right track and he won't grow up as a status obsessed thug with body dysmorphia.

Spot on.

You rolled my eyes at your, “weirdly good” at football comment.

I have a child who is really good at art, and creates amazing make up looks. I don’t even own any make up and you’d laugh at my drawing attempts.

But I don’t find her “weirdly creative” because I’ve managed to work out that she isn’t a clone of me 🙄

Too much faux handwringing for me here - yes, you know the term toxic masculinity, yes, you get your woke medal.

You were allowed to be the quiet child you were naturally at school-
Let your DS be who he is!
I think you are being ridiculous, snobby and controlling.

Plenty of parents would love for their DC to have a healthy, sporty activity versus hours in front of the screen!!

Let him enjoy it whilst it lasts

I think yabu to make those generalisations about people who are into football, IME 'all' sorts of personalities and groups of boys and girls like football. My DH loves football, he is an Architect, went to Art college, I was with my son at the local 6th form college open evening last night and he is massively in to football, as are many of his friends he is deciding on what subjects to pick for A level subjects and it is between politics, economics, Maths, History, he plays the guitar, is taking music GCSE and they (him and his friends) all comment on any behaviour that they see as sleazy and sexist at the school from other boys in the playground or boys at parties they have been to. Conversely, my youngest DD is not interested in the much more inclusive women's football like many of her friends, she is arty, designs jewellery and is musical, she likes interesting fashion, so fulfilling quite a few girl behaviour stereotypes- should I be worried?

I bet if the ops ds was creative, quiet and a bit geeky, she'd be waxing lyrical about how it's so fantastic he can be himself and express his personality.

You’re overthinking it. In my experience with a 14 yo DS it is completely normal for boys to spend every break playing football in large groups that often cross over age groups and class levels. I think that’s such a healthy way to socialise as opposed to small cliques that the teacher seems to expect?

My DS learned all about different car brands at that age, even though we are not car people at all. I suggested different activities but he had no interest in doing anything outside of school apart from sports. He now plays 3 different sports and that’s his social life taken care of. I love that he spends his free time playing sport, it’s far preferable to other activities that 14yo can get up to. He’s still smart and sensitive and kind, he just likes sport!

I think YABVU. You are trying to micromanage and control your child's interests because you think he's going to turn into an extra from Football Factory. Stopping a child from doing what they want to do and forcing your own interests on them is cruel and manipulative. As for the playing in a group, I'd take this every day over small cliques where fall outs happen daily. Get a grip and let your child have fun and play.

Unfortunately I think most posters have fixated on the football element rather than what you are actually worried about - the less than desirable traits that are coming along with it. I wouldn't be happy if my DS at that age was obsessed with muscles and status symbols etc. Like you say it would be the same as a little girl wanting to be thin. That said - it also isn't uncommon and as long as you are having conversations at home to balance things out I wouldn't worry too much.

Being worried about whether your DS will turn into some macho knobhead (I'm not saying he will, OP!!) isn't snobby. How many posts do we see on here every day about poor male behaviour stemming from a sense of entitlement and needing to be the alpha?

I'm really surprised at how passive school sound in the face of this. Unless they have huge grounds which allow all children space for their preferred game, I'm surprised they don't have designated football days.

Oh and for people who think children choose to obsess over football, it's really rare for a child to get very obsessed without it being facilitated at least a bit by a grown up - who takes them to watch, lets them have it on tv a lot, discusses it, buys player cards & football kits etc.

Do you have statistical evidence for that sweeping generalisation- so many ill informed sterotypes about 'football' and I think it is really miserable, anti-childhood brigade that politicises playground activities. As a PP said I'd much rather my 15 year old had a healthy outlet for teenage stresses by playing a bit of leisurely football both at school lunchtime and in my son's case after school in the park, than sat around getting no exercise as he may be at risk of offending those who believe it is too 'masculine' an activity. My DS and his friends are not amazing players, they are not in the school first team for football, they don't play for the school at all but they are learning the importance of exercise as a leisure activity that is cheap and you don't have to be the best at and it is inclusive as many boys play and socialise which encourages friendship between more people, preferable to cliques imo!

Not sure who your post is aimed at, but I completely agree with you - and that was the point of my post. Too much fixation on football in this thread, and not on the actual concerns of OPs post. Just swap out football for any other activity (chess if you like) - it's the attitude/behaviours that are accompanying it, not the sport itself.

I would much rather my two boys were playing football/sport than obsessed with gaming and girls (but sadly they are). I would not however want them to be displaying worrying attitudes or behaviour around it. I have felt the same way when my eldest was obsessed with playing Fortnite for example. He was displaying poor behaviour linked to that. It's not the fault of the game as such.

The micromanagement in children's life these days makes everything extra stressful for them, adults control so much of children's life and it has overcomplicated things, it adds stress rather than support. My son was saying that he wished mobile phones weren't such a big thing in their lives as he hears about my teenage years in the late 90s and thinks things were easier, we certainly were allowed to just 'be' as young people, I personally don't recall this level of involvement with our every choice and interest due to our parents 'knowing better'. How's your steering of his life with regards to leisure activities OP, allowing him to develop in to his own person. Don't let him sense your disappointment as that won't be great for the person he becomes either!

'Pack mentality' he is a 7 year old playing football and why shouldn't he! Are you honestly stating a 7 year old child is a 'problem', he is not a 'problem', he is a child, a small child. Do you think that is an acceptable view to have of a young child?

Scouting is mixed so is good for stopping gender stereotypes when all mixing in together with the activities

I think other schools would be same. You’d be mad to move him from a local good school where he is happy and has friends. You do sound a bit snobbish towards football, if he gets opportunities for coaching etc please don’t turn them down. My brother loved football and was very good but also very academic they aren’t mutually exclusive. Maybe see if he’d like cubs as that will be active and might appeal.

Blimey.

I have no problem with football! I have said upthread that I love grassroots football, and his team!

Who do you think takes him to football practice and games every week??

Thank you to the poster that actually got this.

I am concerned that it has become tool of currency and status at school, is dominating all playtimes, and a 7 year old child is concerned about having big muscles, a six pack and being tough. Aren't we supposed to be teaching boys it's okay to cry for the sake of their later mental health? Feeling like you have to be the tough guy with your mates at 7 doesn't chime with that really does it.

All wee boys go through a tough / muscles stage. It's not mutually exclusive from having and promoting good mental health. Who is saying it's not ok to cry? The teacher??

I'd also be concerned it was taking over the playground. Do girls play? One of my DDs is football mad and would be righteously pissed off if she wasn't invited. I would certainly get him playing an instrument if you can - said DD was also good at music and enjoyed it. Or cubs if there's a good group around.

Could you suggest an alternative for some lunch times. My DDs primary school had a thing where yr 6 would play games with little ones on a rota think they were called play leaders. Wouldn’t take much money they had a few beanbags, hoops and played traditional games. They all liked it.

Similar dynamic at our school. Scouts is a good idea, he's perfect age for Beavers. And lots of discussions about being healthy, how strength doesn't always equal biggest muscles, talking about stamina as well, and maybe about how girls can be strong too without the traditional male muscly physique. Look at climbers for strength without bulk examples.
My little boy is one of the non footballers, I was talking to the dad of one of the talented footballers yesterday and he had the same concerns as you, if that reassures you that you are not alone.

The trouble with football is that it does have that link with tribalism and violence, often via male status. Statistical evidence? Lazy stereotypes? Why do police have to put out warnings before every big game that domestic violence isn't cool or tolerated? Why are the police out at games? Don't be so disingenuous.