Dynamic in DSs class - toxic masculinity?

[BeatieBourke]

I don't know if I'm being a bit PFB or fussy about this, but it gives me a bad feeling and makes me a bit sad.

DS is 7. He goes to the nearest village primary. The school is decent, the teaching is good and the atmosphere generally seems caring, warm and supportive. It's quite a small school with only one class of 25 in each year group.

DS is football mad. This is random as we're not a sporty family, don't watch football or support a team. He just absolutely loves it, and is genuinely weirdly good at it. All the parents assume we must be egging him on to be the best, but apart from him enjoying himself we don't really give a shit about how good he is.

Lots of the boys in his class are also football mad. Some of them also play in his team with the local club. At a recent parents evening, his teacher mentioned that shes never had such a football mad class, its very competitive and hierarchical, and hard for the kids that aren't that into it. They play football every break and lunch time. I don't think this is healthy.

DS has recently started talking about having big muscles, being the strongest, who's got the fastest cars, what everyone's dad's do for a job, who's the toughest. You get the drift.

I don't think DS is an angelic innocent in this dynamic. He is competitive, and it seems the highly prized things happen to play to his strengths (although we do not have big muscles, or any money, and drive an absolute skip!). But I don't like the way this dynamic in his class is going. His teacher also commented that, unusually, all the boys play as one big group all the time. There are no individual little friendships and kids going off at lunch to play different games in different corners of the field. It sounds quite an intense pack mentality.

We are not like this and dont talk this at home. DH is in no way an alpha male. He is a quite unassuming strong and silent type. He's artistic, mild mannered, and doesn't give a shit about money, cars or status (luckily!). I can't help but feel that all this status stuff at school is shaping DS and what he thinks other people value. I'm worried about his friendships as he goes through school.

I'm thinking of putting him into another out of school activity to broaden his interests. Beyond that I don't know what to do about the friendship thing.

IANBU - boys and class dynamics don't have to be like this and we & teachers should do something.

IABU - Im being a PFB pratt, this is what happens in school and all kids go through it to some degree. Keep him on the right track and he won't grow up as a status obsessed thug with body dysmorphia.

Lots of the boys in his class are also football mad. Some of them also play in his team with the local club. At a recent parents evening, his teacher mentioned that shes never had such a football mad class, its very competitive and hierarchical, and hard for the kids that aren't that into it. They play football every break and lunch time. I don't think this is healthy.
It might be worth talking to the school about managing breaks better. When football takes over non-sporty children can be excluded and children don't get chance to do anything else. This thread has some ideas:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2809189-Design-cities-with-women-in-mind?page=1
I thought there was another thread but can't find it.

As non football playing child in a primary school were football was played every breaktime till the day we left, I still think you are being unreasonable. He's 7 and enjoys football and all the boys play together happily. What's wrong with that.

How big is the playground? Some schools limit how often football is played as it can take up the whole playground.

I don’t think the OP is worried about the football as such. She is worried about admiring high earning, physically strong people. Nothing wrong with being high earning or physically strong - AS LONG AS you appreciate that a person’s worth is not based on that. I too would be concerned if my kids were saying those things.

I try and say that we all have different bodies - good at different things (just as there are all types of non-physical skills too). We should focus on self-improvement/personal bests - by practice we almost always improve at whatever skill. I’m not into football, but look up Lionel messi - I believe he is not a big footballer (I think he needed to be treated for growth hormone deficiency), but he is v skilful. My kid is in cubs and enjoys it - good for teamwork.

You do seem to PFBing. However I think adding other activities would be good and also, rather than criticise what he likes, just introduce him to different ideas and lots of different ways to be successful and be a man (without it being obvious or preachy).

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying a sport, especially one so massively popular. It’s an easy way for him to make friends and have something in common with a wide group of people.

Our kids and what they are interested in can turn out to be very different than us. It doesn’t make them wrong. I would learn to embrace his interests, so that you can keep tabs on things. I also don’t think just because boys like similar things or can be competitive that makes them “toxic”.

I get it I think, if you aren't really into those kinds of things at home and value other characteristics it is a bit of a shock to come up against the outside world. TBH I would be relieved my son had the skills and interests needed to fit in with the group at school, I do think for boys it is hard to fit in sometimes when how they are raised at home is so at odds with social expectation..it is sad but a reality. I think you continue to.provide a balance, channel it positively. It doesn't seem toxic in this scenario and I am unsure of the benefits of hand wringing about it when actually there isn't an issue for him or other children. It is a clash of interests and values and yes a bit snobby. I think small schools can have issues if you don't fit in. Oh, talking about muscles is ok I think, fitness, strength ,health if not putting others down. (OP is about boys so haven't mentioned issues for girls).

"I think you are overthinking this. Quite a lot!"

I agree. It's totally normal and fine. It happens, in some classes, and it Peter's out. You need do nothing.

i think there are two separate things going on - the football and the macho / status thing.

The latter… I have a 14 yr old boy and came on here recently after he mentioned Andrew Tate (who I had never heard of) to me. DS recently took up boxing and running, and how he looks (fit and muscles) is definitely part of the motivation. This led us to talk a lot about men and masculinity and what he’s being exposed to online. There is a hugely influential group of young, good looking, ‘high status’ men out there, making a living and attracting a big following of other young men and boys. many of them have flashy cars, big houses, expensive watches, and sexy women all over them in their videos. Not all of them are ‘toxic’ in the way that Tate is - a lot of them talk (endlessly) about discipline, self respect, achievement and motivation: if they can help my 14 yr old to work hard at school, take fitness seriously and make his bed every morning - power to their elbow !

‘status’ is exactly the word DS used yesterday when we talked (we are keeping this conversation going). He said that online and increasingly IRL, among boys / men, ‘status’ is the most important thing. Status is associated with many things - money, looking good / muscles, expensive possessions, good looking girlfriend. Personally, I don’t think this is very different to the way a lot of men think anyway (though I too have a very lovely, ‘low status’ DH!) but now it is everywhere and far more / younger boys are being exposed to it. even if your PFB isn’t exposed directly, other boys in his class will be or they will have big brothers who are.

So talk to him, is my advice, in a an age appropriate way. Sport and fitness, rather than muscles. Nice to have nice things, but it doesn’t really say much about a persons character, what case they drive. And while you still can, keep an eye on what he’s watching online (I’m sure you already are).

I am a primary school teacher and the football thing is normal - 90% of the boys spend every playtime kicking a ball around, usually in a big group as you describe.

Our infant school stopped football at playtimes last year for Year 2. I think the biggest problem is that the confident boys who play with a club outside school NEVER let the other kids have a turn or they play so roughly that no one else is able to join. Managing playtimes is one of those things that requires staff and a budget to change and most schools have neither at the moment. I suspect at a village school, they do football because it is easy, but other wide games or ball games should be rotated through.

The class teacher will do planning and lunch during playtimes so if you know a TA or midday support staff, talking to them might be better. I have cut various children off from football if they act like the men on tv, and while they whine terribly, they eventually get on with something else.

Oh, we had a class of football boys. Horrid for my son, who hates it, and horrid for the girls who weren’t allowed to join in and had to hug the fence to avoid being bashed into. Thankfully the school decided that certain days would be football at break, and some not.

Yabu. Kids playing sport in one big group at playtime I'd very healthy. Better then little group friendships and fall outs at their age.

I get it too, I think. But also think you probably are over-thinking.

DS was part of a football-mad primary class. It was brilliant for him, because he has loved football from an early age (sport-mad, though lovely(!) dad here).
There were a couple of boys in the class who struggled with fitting in with the big group as they didn't play or really enjoy it, but enough of them that no one was left out, and there were 'no-ball Fridays', which DS wasn't a fan of, but I think were a good thing!

(As an aside, they were at a small intake school, that has never done very well in the local sports leagues. They were the first year group ever to win the local league in Y6 and it was a brilliant experience that they still remember with great pride now they are Y10s.)

We're keen football supporters ourselves, and it's definitely been a positive thing for DS playing and following football and being part of school and league teams. It oils the social wheels too, especially in early secondary. But I understand and agree with you about an unpleasant male subculture that you don't want him getting drawn in to. In my experience, a few years down the line from you, football isn't a big part of that - football is the ultimate meritocracy - and while I'm sure the fancy cars and six-packs etc are part of the allure (and need some guidance from you as a parent), I think it's healthier to aspire to them that the 'influencers/YouTubers' that young teen boys often seem to like so much.

As a teen, DS has found some of his peers are starting to talk about women and gay men in less pleasant and respectful ways. I don't know if that's more the case among the 'sporty boys' than the 'artsy boys', because I don't know the artsy ones. I do know that DS really dislikes it; he will leave a group if any of that type of conversation starts and is as disgusted as the rest of us by Andrew Tate etc. He's not perfect, by any means, and he's not through adolescence yet, but he's not showing any real signs of toxic masculinity despite very much being one of the 'football kids'.

Incidentally, one of the (minor) problems 14 yr old DS has got is that he is still as football-obsessed as ever, but his peers are starting to splinter off into girls/gaming/skateboarding etc etc!

Is it? If that’s snobbery we could do with a bit more of it, in one of Europe’s more aggressive countries imnho.

Id be the same as you op: watching and a bit worried. Pack mentality, especially male pack mentality, has never been my friend. I think the alternative activities outside school are a good idea.

OP count your bloody lucky stars that your boy is gifted in the one and only thing that seems to earn status in a male alpha group. It'll be a nightmare for the other kids who aren't interested or good at it. One of my boys had a real problem with this once but it only lasted a year as he was moving schools for an unrelated reason.

To be honest you never can tell how class dynamics are going to go, and yes it seems like this is a toxic group in some ways, but the boys are also at the age where they jostle for dominance in a group because of hormonal changes (hence the cringy references to money or nice cars or whatever, for most that's a phase), and football tbh is a decent way of channeling those hormones and feelings, and also gets them a lot of decent exercise. That's also a positive!

If you can reinforce often to your boy that it's important to look out for the kids who don't like football or who aren't good at it, so they feel included too, that'd be a great thing.

I agree with others and like Spider said, it’s about ‘finding their place in the pack’. I also empathise with you on the football side 😬 none of our family watch or play football

DS8 got into football with boys in his class, and there is a lot of bigger than you/alpha male stuff that some of the boys try in that class !

DS also does cricket, tap, ice hockey, cubs and he has slowly started to pull away from the main football organiser. Give it time OP your Son will probably find his feet and breakaway

That's typical playground stuff from young boys. My dad is bigger than your dad type chat. It's part of growing up for them.

My DS is in Y2 in a very boy heavy class (18 boys to 12 girls) and football seems to be the ultimate currency, unfortunately for DS who isn’t interested in it. He quite likes kicking a ball around for fun but couldn’t get a look in amongst all the highly competitive kids who’ve been in local teams since they were 3. His school have now banned it at lunchtimes as the kids were so rough with each other that people were getting hurt every day. Now they play giant games of bulldog or tag instead!

I agree with encouraging other interests too but also not worrying about your DS’s interest in football - it will always be a great way to bond and make friends. My DS doesn’t have that but luckily seems to be a sociable enough little kid, often found playing with the girls or other non-football boys of which there are thankfully a few!

I think you are over-worrying about this. But, since the school is aware of the situation, it is disappointing that they haven't taken any steps to loosen things up a bit.

For example in DS's school football is only allowed in the playground on certain days, to stop the space becoming dominated by the footballers and allow everybody (including the football kids) to play other games. It is natural for kids this age to be competitive, but the school can mitigate it to some extent.

Yanbu and I would want school discouraging a) a heavily polarised style of play that doesn't allow for different personalities and interests to flourish b) the boasting etc about physical appearance, money etc.

Its fine for football to be enjoyed but not for it to become currency for little boys to obsess over. There are schools that don't allow it at playtime at all because of the tendency of a small number of obsessed boys to quickly dominate the space.

I think it's a bit of a leap from liking football to "toxic masculinity".

Nurture and encourage his love of football - does he play in a team? But as you say balance it with another activity.

Ffs! You love a good stereotype don’t you!!

Yabu. If he lives to play and compete let him do so. As well as being competitive it will also encourage team work, keep him fit & healthy. So what if he's competitive & driven? It's a tough old world out there when they're older. As long as you bring him up with the right values & encourage other activities too them he'll be fine. I have an adult ds like this. Always football mad, competitive, driven & focused & currently breezing through RAF basic training, so it's held him I'm good stead. He's also a lovely lad who's not a show off alpha male, even if I say so myself! If you bring him up with the right values there's no need to worry

My nephew played football in primary school and thankfully soon tired of it.

I went to a match and was really shocked at how the dads behaved. One grown man was shouting at a six year old in goals that he was rubbish!! A lot of swearing parents and intimidated looking tiny children. you were okay i you happened to be good at football but grown men were trashing little kids who were only having fun.

my nephew was taken out of the club that week.

hopefully this is a phase that the class will grow out of. But I do understand why you are concerned.