To be disgusted that nurses may be striking for a 17% pay rise!

[justonemire]

Of course nurses should receive a fair salary and of course they have as much right as anyone else to ask for a pay rise. However to ask for a pay rise that is 5% above the current 12% inflation rate is just ridiculous and never going to be approved.

The average nurses salary is £35.600 and this would equate to a pay rise of £6.150.

Yes nurses do a great job but so do a lot of other key workers in the public sector who have only received 2%

The government simply cannot accept the nurses pay demands because if they do everyone else would go on strike for a similar deal. Where would it end.

Therefore the outcome is that people will not receive the proper level of care we are all paying taxes for. If there are strikes then The NHS will be run as if it is Christmas Day. God help us and our loved ones then.

There will be resulting misdiagnosis and deaths and where will the fault lie? Yes you can blame the government, Putin for invading Ukraine and pushing up food and energy costs, etc but I think we will also all blame the nursing profession too for asking for a completely unrealistic 17% pay rise.

@DifficultGirl I don't disagree with you regarding social care, mental health, obesity, smoking etc. But that can't change overnight. We have an ageing population with chronic illnesses sitting in A&E right now who need to be treated and cared for in the meantime.

And yes, the recruitment of nurses, what exact attracts nurses to the NHS? Will throwing more money at this solve anything? Does the overall package (which compared to private, is pretty reasonable) - I've read training programes could be better and are often unpaid - perhaps this could attract others.

What do you think makes the overall package reasonable? I'm not being goady, I'm genuinely interested. The only thing I can think of is full pay for sick leave for 6 months, which is massively open to abuse and actually causes a lot of problems for the staff who don't take the piss.

It’s so depressing how determined people seem to be to derail attempts to improve pay and conditions in the UK’s embarrassingly low wage economy.

There’s some mixture of tall poppy syndrome (how dare anyone think they should be rewarded for experience, skills and expertise!) and plain old politics of envy (if I don’t have it, no one should) that seems very prevalent in the uk.

@DifficultGirl

As a higher rate tax payer you're presumably a higher rate earner?

What makes your role worth more than a nurse?

The system looks knackered. It needs investment in its staff as a public resource. Otherwise it is waiting to be taken over by a private company and run on an insurance basis. Nurses will then be privately employed. It's not tenable to say well other things need fixing first. The shortages of staff needs to be addressed now, by improved pay and conditions.

Hang on... the nurses strike does not apply in Scotland. What is your interest, Difficult?

No, it's England and Wales. NHS matters are devolved.

So why are you so worried as to what happens in England and Wales, which won't affect your tax rate?

Well isn't the point of devolved health and adjusting tax rates that literally, it's actually a purely devolved issue?

Yea, I do find it odd you would engage on a strike that only engages in England and Wales. Nothing in your tax arrangements will be affected, if that is your concern.

The other point is that whatever is done in England and Wales won't carry over to Scotland; the management is totally separate and the responsibility is with the Scottish Government.

@DifficultGirl

There are 12.5 million people claiming the state pension, many are very well off, with FS pensions from years ago and from the public sector - absolutely no problem with this at all, people have worked hard all their lives and deserve their pensions.

However, there are 360,000 nurses in the NHS, then there is approx 170,000 AHP's, with another 500k covered by the Agenda for Change.

The Government found a 10.1% increase for pensioners, yet cannot find anything like this for NHS staff.

10% would doubtless settle the dispute but the cynic in me thinks that as most in the NHS aren't tory supporters and pensioners are, the Tories wont settle.

He could give the pensioners a 3% rise and increase means tested benefits for those that need them, using money saved to increase NHS pay for sections of the NHS workforce.

Sunak lying again, saying the RCN want 19%... what a xxxx he is.

@LexMitior

Nurses in Scotland are also striking

@DifficultGirl

No one is labelling you as negative

It's a reasonable question to ask someone who thinks nurses don't deserve better pay

I don't think it really matters where the money comes from

If you want a decent health service we have to pay for it and that includes well paid staff

@DifficultGirl We'd all like to know the plans to fix the bigger picture! Very good point by PP about finding the money to increase pensions 10% but can't find enough money for NHS. There's always money for the things the government want to find.

And I'd like to fact check your information about the proposed NHS Scotland pay rise - 8.7% applies only to newly-qualified nurses and has clearly been deliberately chosen so the media can spin it as an amazing offer for nurses. For bands 1-4 and 8b+ the offer is no different (to the penny) to the previous offer. For those bands in between it is only marginally better.

@LexMitior We seem to be on the same side here but please don't tell me I can't have an opinion as I'm Scottish. Our staff are also voting on similar pay offers and may yet strike - Scottish Ambulance Service were on the verge of a strike until this new offer came through. It may be devolved but if NHS staff either side of the border got a significant raise over the others people would just move South/North as applicable, so it is relevant.

I haven't told anyone they cannot have an opinion because they are Scottish. But the consideration is fundamentally different because it is devolved. For example, NHS Scotland may consider finding services by charging Scottish higher rate taxpayers. That isn't even something that can be comprehended yet in England and Wales, or NHS England.

There's something extraordinary about Scottish higher rate taxpayers asking where the money will come from - for England? What kind of comment is that?

Scotland and England have two very different governments on health, it doesn't do to assume parity or that they inform the other. Devolution literally makes it irrelevant. Whatever the Scottish Government do about nursing pay won't be used by a Tory Government for English nurses and Scottish MPs will have no input into it either.

@DifficultGirl no roast here, but the media only ever say the strikes are about money. Yes that's part of it, but just for an example, my husband is a mental health nurse and he regularly arrives on shift to be the only nurse on, he may have an agency nurse but rarely, this means that he can't leave the ward for his full shift, all medications are down to him, the safety of the 20 odd patients and any emergencies that arise are all on him! The HCA staff are exhausted too, they're expected to do everything else that he can't get to due to being on his own. Legally the ward has to have 2 nurses on at all times but what are the staff supposed to do in these circumstances? This isn't an isolated issue, it was the same at his last trust and countrywide. Patients are being failed, tax payers are being failed and most of all the NHS staff are being failed

As previous posters mentioned, of course it can be afforded. The state pension has been increased by 10.1% for millions of pensioners.
the nhs already pays for agency staff. Of course this can be afforded.
And pay restoration is needed for all other public sector workers too

@Tessabelle74 Excellent post and I agree with all of it

@DifficultGirl I forgot to respond to your post about pensions. There's this perception that we have 'gold-plated pensions' but the reality is we pay in quite a chunk of our salary to the pension pot, it's nowhere near as good as it used to be (now an average salary not final salary pension), and unless you're very near retirement age now you can't access your full pension until state pension age. Now, you say your dad accesses NHS services a lot so presumably doesn't keep well. As you're still paying off your student loan I'm assuming you're fairly young, so wouldn't be surprised if your dad is less than 68. Do you think it's realistic to have nurses of that age, also probably with health conditions of their own, working 12 hour nightshifts, doing patient turns and pat slides, working in A&E or alone on a ward at risk of attack from aggressive patients? So no, the pension T&Cs are not 'pretty good' IMO.

Pretty much what my DD finds herself in, the other day they had 11 patients waiting to be signed of as safe discharges, she was off sick but made herself come in to do the assessments....one of the HCA's said she looked like "death"... no one else was available.

Its just unfair, the Govt and the general population abuse the health service workers.... have done for years.

Of course its affordable... whats the alternative? maybe thats what that fool Barclay needs to be asked.

@Alexandra2001 and the ward managers, the only ones on the level of wages spouted by people like the OP do 9-5 Monday to Friday and won't do any extra to help their staff!

Exactly, the effects of this strike (and the strike) are 100% down to the Tories and their mis management of the NHS... their BS clapping, whilst partying ... their refusal to give a decent pay rise after Covid would have avoided all this but oh no! those fools had to offer 1% and piss off the staff big time, removing the goodwill they need now as we go into recession.

So much short term thinking from people who are supposed to be our leaders.

Don’t forget the 32 billion track n trace theft
the PPE contracts

yes there’s money- it’s just never going to nurses, doctors, or allied health professionals

Yeah... nurses...what good have they ever done....😂🙄

I was a nurse. I am not now but have worked in the public sector in my current role for nearly 20 years. The propaganda around public sector pay and benefits is shocking- although not surprising considering the majority of people seem to het their news from right wing press and lack the incentive/capacity to want to look into the bigger picture.

Public sector pay has been stagnent for at least 12 years. I remember during covid conversations within my workplace when furlough was announced that we all agreed we would have another pay freeze to pay for it. The economy under the current government - despite them being the party of growth- has been dire and more recently catastrophic. This regime does not want a welfare state so swinging cuts since day one. Everyone is working in chronically underfunded services but people expect a 5* service (without paying the taxes needed).

People who work in the public sector have always accepted lesser pay because it has been understood that we get certain benefits in return. These have been increasing eroded and working condition have become intolerable. People are leaving without jobs to go to, particularly people in senior roles which has a massive impact on those in junior positions who just burn out and leave within a year or two. Some roles in the public sector do not really exist in the same way in the private sector- so people accruing considerable debt to become nurses, teachers and social workers etc are choosing to leave in their first few years. This is not a reflection on them or their ability. I am a CP social worker and lots of my colleagues in my LA work at home until 11pm every night and log on at weekends to keep on top of their recordings. I have done the job for a lot longer and now can live with being 'told off' when I get behind on every day stuff. However it is not uncommon to have to spend home time to get court reports finished or use my annual leave to get the time and space to do lifestory work.

Just to add- there is nothing stopping people choosing to work in the public sector it they want the pension and other benefits. Retrain or take one of the many roles in admin, IT, legal services, Human resources, maintenance etc. It really is not an exclusive club.

Lets not forget that Liz Truss cost the UK economy at least £30bn, not including the billions spent by the BoE.

£30bn would give a 40% pay rise to Nurses/AHPs.

But nurses have to have 3% rise....... or whatever derisory pay increase the so called independent body comes up with....

Might be better if the staff just walked out... then lets see how much more valuable a Nurse is compared to an Aldi manager or even a PM... like Sunak.