I believe that the minimum wage should be enough to enable a working couple to feed and clothe a family of four and keep a roof over their heads.

[Mamarsupial]

I don’t think I am BU for a moment, interested to see how many agree with me.

It’s a point of principle I am making here.

I fully appreciate that it is currently impossible in many parts of the UK.

I think a 2 bed house is the bare minimum. Yes opposite sex teens would share - hardly ideal, but I think the general principle of two people per room is a fair basic minimum.

The childcare is being provided or paid for by the couple. If one parent wished to stay at home then they could do so, and if both parents wished to work then their salary would be enough to pay for the care required.

I think this should be possible in every part of the UK.

I think a household needs £40k to live a decent and dignified life. I say this because this is how much it costs my household to get by. It’s not easy, but then no one has ever said it would be. Two wage earners at the minimum wage will make that so….

@AloysiusBear

The labour market values the wrong things though.

I've got 2 professional qualifications, 1 a post grad degree. 20 years experience. Senior role with lots of stress and responsibility.

I'm not a higher earner

Yes. If you are working and contributing to society you should be able to have a decent standard of living. Doesn't matter if you're a solicitor or a road sweeper or a bus driver or a shop assistant or a financial management consultant or a doctor or a binman. If you are working and helping society run smoothly you should be properly compensated.

I think people forget that 50 years ago was 1972 not the 50s. The PP who mentioned 50 years ago conflated 50 years ago when she was 7 and her dad’s experience of walking to school presumably 25 years or so earlier.

People also forget that working class women have always worked. Going back, nobody in my family has ever been a SAHM and certainly not 50 years ago. In 1972 not only did my parents and grandparents work, but my great grandmother in her 80s was still working a few days a week in a hospital canteen. There are generations of families who simply could not carry a non-working adult. They didn’t have enough money to do so.

It used to be known as a 'family wage' when traditionally a man could keep a wife and children on the money. There are myriad reasons it disappeared.

The once I was talking to simeone about my brother needing a top up.to his wage.he was working full time forva multi national.company. The other person said if these big companies paid a fair wage initially then they wouldn't need to access a top up. Four point. These companies are making millions of pounds in profits whilst the tax payer subsidised their employees' wages. Not good. Rant over 😨🤣

this person was being deliberately goading I think

I absolutely agree OP. I was brought up in an environment where my parents did mw jobs (before mw actually existed)and we were never short of anything. We had a warm comfortable council house that they eventually bought and plenty of food although the shopping was done once a week and the day before the big shop meant there was food for dinner and that was it no extras or treats. They budgeted well so bills were always paid so I never remember money worries. We had no car and never ate out or did day trips but I never felt deprived. We had a week at the seaside every year. It must be so much harder now for people to exist on such low wages

What’s my point!! That wages have not kept pace with costs. Now even with two people working they still need govt support in order to live.

I agree, that's why it can't just be about raising MW if we are too see better standards of living. What we is need sufficient social housing and more control and regulations of standards in private rentals and of course energy price regulation too, or we'll just be moving the cost elsewhere. In America salaries are comparatively higher and it sounds impressive all these people in their 20s earning 60K, but then I've realised people will be struggling on 40 or 50K a year there because the lack of public services and how expensive rent and many other things are there. My american cousin earns a 6 figure salary and she is reasonably well off but not as much as you'd think for someone on that salary.

Yes. If you work full time, in any job, you should be able to afford a decent standard of living

The NMW was not set up till 1998 under a Labour government. Do you honestly think that all employers cared about their staff and paid a living wage before that?

Tax credits were introduced in 2003 but Family Income Supplement was introduced in 1971 by Ted Heath's Tory government to top up the wages of families with children.

There are huge vacancies in care work, school work, hospitality so its not the case that people are falling over themselves to do these roles.

I think the discussion focusing on minimum wage is a red herring to be honest, people have always had low incomes for certain jobs, they have also always had benefits for low incomes, right back from the 50s and 60s I dont know why people seem to think this is a new thing that came with NMW, it didnt

The real issue here is housing costs and child care costs (and yet of course child care workers are themselves on NMW most of the time).

But its not populist to have a massive social housing building scheme which is what we actually need, we need for people to be able to rent social housing, not part buy, not help to buy, not right to buy, not shared ownership, those all have their place but there are people who need and want to rent reasonabley and safely with stability for their children's school needs, family links and health provision but dont want to or cant buy

Thats the real solution, we need decent, cheap housing, just like in the 50s and 60s.

My example of my father was that although as a child I didn’t suffer poverty my father did. So it isn’t just now that people can’t afford school uniforms etc. So it’s not just simply wages not increasing sufficiently that is causing this crisis.

Correct. There are a lot of myths maintained in discussions like this

My mum worked in the 70s, her mother worked in the 30s onward. They did cleaning, baby sitting, took in washing, some care work etc etc

so growing up, my father was an accountant and we did not have a lavish lifestyle at all. No foreign holidays, normal school, high street clothes (and not that many of them). We only ate out a few times a year and only got a take away on Christmas Eve.

i honestly think people are wearing rose tinted glasses.

This doesnt represent the situation though

Two parents on NMW now and with council accommodation, not running a car would also be able to live comfortably and have one seaside holiday a year.

Problem everyone has a different definition of comfortable - what is a luxury to one is a basic to another
transport to one will be on foot walking to work, others will be a decent car etc

I agree, 2 people working full time on min wage should be able to afford to live (not scrape by, actually have a standard of living) and have a family. Min wage jobs are so under valued, did lockdowns not teach us anything about what our essential services are? These jobs need to be done, the people doing them should be able to afford a life and a family.

Thanks. People do not seem to realise this.

There was a whole army of women doing home sewing. It was piece work and could be done on a machine while looking after children.

I support family of 3 on 10ph wage which is just above if my dh could work we would be better off but I pay for everything and only get child benefit so yes 2 full time 40 hours a week should support a family if 4 however not if you live in a city

Can I mention several phone ins I've listened to recently plus various nonsensical comments on Twitter to do with NMW and wages in general. Plenty of middle aged blokes in particular saying stuff like HGV drivers , van drivers and warehouse working should be on a minimum of £30 an hour.

Do these people not realise what many jobs involving long periods of training and years without earning at all and acquiring debt- teachers, nurses, IT professionals, junior doctors, physios, social workers etc actually earn. My son has a mid level projects job in IT- whilst his wage is good for 24, it still works out at about £18 an hour - as will virtually all the jobs I mentioned above. The figures they are quoting for important and necessary but not necessarily hugely skilled jobs are nonsensical

Do they actually realise that if it's public service then the only way to pay much higher wages is to pay higher tax or raise state income one way or other or borrow more. If it's private companies then to pay massively increased wages means much higher prices at the till for everyone- not just those lucky to benefit from higher wages and some companies would go out of business too- not great long term for jobs

I personally think we are looking at this the wrong way round and it's the costs that need to be addressed. Private rental costs in many areas of higher demand are plain ridiculous, stop granting permission for big new private developments and bring on a huge programme of social rented houses and part buys (of all sizes - not just 1 and 2 bed flats) - plus rent caps appropriate to area. subsidise childcare massively across the board from all ages , like they do in many EU countries, make it pay to work .Make it £240 a month per child like it was when we were in Denmark. Get rid of council tax and fund the councils properly , same with business rates - and I would personally raise tax by 7p in pound to cover it off.

I honestly felt the Danish way worked far better- people paid high tax but better wages and so much more was covered off- so although they came home with similar amounts , when you factored in cheap childcare, low cost but good housing and no council tax

The people who didnt like it were invariably older home owners with no kids around but there was a general acceptance that long term it created a better environment for the good of all even if financially it only benefited you at certain points in life

I think 2 adults on mw can already support 2 children in the north or Wales where housing is relatively cheap.
Certainly once the children are in school and no longer needing nursery to be paid for.
People have a lot more luxuries than 50 years ago and that tends to be forgotten. Phones, meals out, much higher car ownership, TV subscriptions, electronic gadgets, the sheer amount of stuff we all have that all needs to be paid for. 50 years ago no one had dishwashers or tumble dryers or iPads or mobile phones or Netflicks. People walked or cycled instead of driving. They had a much more basic standard of living. Hence cheaper.