The state pension is HOW MUCH???

[BeatieBourke]

Call me stupid (fair) but I've just realised how much the state pension is. £800 odd a month (£185.15pw).

As a non-means tested benefit. For EVERYONE.

I'm generally of the opinion that benefits are too low and too punitive. I usually advocate for universalism. I understand that people have worked their whole lives and paid in, and deserve a retirement. And that having pensioners in poverty does no favours to the economy or other welfare services.

But £800 a month / £9k a year for EVERYONE?? So a widower in rented accommodation with no other income or savings, £800pm. A wealthy 68 year old who's earned a 6 figure salary, has a huge property portfolio and investments coming out of their ears that pay a fortune out in dividends, £800pm. Seriously?

I understand that no party, least of all the Tories (because tory voters as a population are older) will ever go after pensions because it would be unpopular (and older people vote more generally). But in a time when the country is supposedly facing a financial "black hole" and everything else has already been cut to the bone for the last 12 years, why the hell are we paying out state benefits to millionaires?

Maybe if pensions were means tested (with a fairly high and tapering threshold) there'd be enough to pay pensions for women at 65, and more for people who haven't built up huge assets, can't afford to live, heat their homes or eat a hot meal every day in their later years. I can see the (cynical) political sense in it, but no economic sense whatsoever.

AIBU?

pensions are paid by current taxpayers. The existing generation of pensioners have not paid anything like enough for their pensions due to longer life expectancy. You can bet that my dds generation who will actually pay for the boomers pension won’t get universal pensions.

universal pensions are basically huge wealth transfers to the elderly and usually the wealthy elderly. Yet they get away with it because they vote

Why? They’ve paid into a private pension and also paid sufficient NI over the years to qualify. State pension isn’t a freebie. It’s not like child benefit where you can claim having never worked a day in your life.

My Grandparents, for example.

One set -both get State Pension, both have private pensions - I know fuck all about them in general, but my Grandad bellyaches about paying 40% tax on it.

They bought a house at 18/16, after they got married and 6 months before my Dad was born. They paid the mortgage off within 2 years, and have never had a mortgage since, have moved several times, and have been in a 4 bed bungalow since just before I was born.

They have some form of passive income from investments (not property), again I don’t know the exact details. They have other investments with large amounts of money in.

Both also get DLA, both need both knee replacements and one needs a hip replacement, both have severe arthritis.

I pointed out that the £800 per person state pension is double what an adult my age would get to live off on UC, and is a little less than what me and my 3DC would get to live off on UC if I lost my job (£1100 ish). They didn’t believe me until I got their iPad out and showed them.

The other is a widow, he died in his 50s, she’s now in her 80s. Council housing all her life, never worked, got/possibly still gets my Grandads Army pension, DLA, has been in sheltered accom fully funded for the last 15 years, has outgoings that are staggeringly tiny - to the point I’m concerned if she’s depriving herself of basic things for whatever reason, but I got told to STFU when I last raised it a decade ago (she is a deeply unpleasant woman and I’m just glad I have 17 cousins that keep her entertained cos I can’t be around her more than once a year).

At no point have I suggested axing the state pension. Just that it's an outlier in otherwise austere and punitive welfare benefits policy.

On reflection I think it's worth upholding, if only so as not to lose the very last element of the universal welfare state.

And they both retired aged 60. Are now in their 80s.

Name one that has universal pensions at that rate for 35 years of similar contributions?

I thought NI went towards the 'free' NHS?

Well, if they shouldn’t get a pension, would you support millionaires paying a lower rate of National Insurance than the lower paid, seeing as they won’t get a pension at the end?

No it isn't, it's a pyramid scheme people who are currently working are paying the pension bill of today's pensioner, plus it is classed as a benefit

If you work then you pay NI for decades, so why shouldn't you get a pension? And that's no matter how rich you are. The state pension is actually pretty low in the UK.

They have already started going after pension, it's not like pensioners have escaped all the cuts. Women used to get their pension at 60, men at 65. Now it's equalised to 66 at the moment, gradually rising to 68 for everyone.

Out of my 4 friends and myself (who were due to get our pensions at 60) none of us made it to pension age without serious health issues. Is it that we're working class? Or the types of jobs we had? I don't know. But there are many many pensioners who never claim their pensions as they don't live long enough.

If you think that's bad (I don't) have a look at how much a person can inherit before they have to pay a single penny in tax.

Is it actually true that they've 'paid in'? Weren't they actually paying the pensions of the pensioners at the time?
Today's working people are paying for the current pensions, not saving for their own?
Or am I wrong?

You are absolutely correct

So what do you suggest is a fair outcome for someone who has paid 30+ years worth of NI when they reach retirement age..?

And get a refund on what I have already paid in over my working life? Maybe they should be able to steal what's in my bank account too if it's deemed to be too much!

I also know some wealthy individuals who donate theirs to charity

Because it’s an incredibly expensive benefit that is paid by current taxpayers (there’s no pot of money and ni contributions do not go near paying for pensions). It’s also paid to people who don’t need it. And we have a massive black hole in our finances

This is basically the point of my OP. Thanks for being more articulate!

You also need to bear in mind that if pensioners are in receipt of a disability benefit ( and many, many are) and live alone they can get pension credit as well on top of state pension, this adds on another £67 odd pounds a week and then the actual disability benefit which can be anything from £60- £150 a week depending whether they were on PIP before reaching retirement age. If both of a couple are disabled then it can be hundreds of extra pounds a week with 2 premiums and claiming carers premiums for each other. I am a benefits advisor but even I am genuinely shocked by what some pensioners get and many do not spend it. And dare I say it , disability benefits for older people I feel are very easy to get, there is no assessment, I have helped hundreds to apply for Attendance allowance in the past 6 months and only had one application turned down. I am often thinking surely this won't be awarded but it invariably is so I do think the threshold for it being awarded is pretty low. So someone may just be on basic state pension, they get awarded Attendance allowance, this then entitles them to pension credit (unless they have a lot of savings ). Receiving guaranteed pension credit then entitled them to full rent and council tax paid ! I honestly don't think people realize how generous benefits are for older people compared to working age people. then there's winter fuel payment for everyone, my 85 year old dad has a good private pension, state pension, savings, is on a fixed rate for his energy, pays £15 quid a month for water yet is getting £600 winter fuel payment that he does not need along with millions of other pensioners !

It is not universal for everyone. It is for people who have worked for often 40 years, paying NIC contributions for whole of that time or who were given a contribution if had a child at home under 12, claiming unemployment benefit, sickness benefit. In Old State Pension people also paid in SURPS (pension payment contribution) which is paid to them separately on top of their old state pension In New State Pension people paid in SURPS (contributory pension payment) but this is now included as part of New State Pension which is why 2 different amounts. State Pension is a social contract and not a benefit. Majority of older people only paid into State Pension. They don't have private pensions. Many saved into ISA's. If people don't pay into state pension or get contributions paid for them they won't get the state pension. Now there is legislation to force employers to pay into a pension for anyone who works but that is only last few years. To suggest Pensioners don't deserve a pension that they contributed to, when their employers did not pay towards is breathtakingly heartless. Why do you think those who paid in should not be allowed to be paid out? Yet you think those on benefits should be paid more. They have paid in less and often virtually nothing. £200 a week is not much to live on. Many Pensioners are equity rich but cash poor. People claiming State Pension today paid for those taking it in previous generations. People who pay NIC's today pay for today's Pensioners. Children today will pay for their parents pensions. Plus money is invested for boost. If my parents had not paid into State Pension through SURPS to hey could have been paying that money into a private pension. Would you want that not to be paid to them either? I think your attitude to pensioners stinks OP.

Ni is just a tax. Why would you get a refund of tax because they change benefit rules?

@BeatieBourke the state pension is taxable income. So higher earners who also have private pensions pay more tax on these. So there is an element on recycling a % back to HMRC.

Really? 🙄

Oh ok. Those who worked and paid NI all their working lives can live on Jack shit in their dotage, but those who've spent a lifetime living on benefits and contributed nothing are fine

Society is totally screwed when the elderly are treated like trash