To think that women without children should be able to take time off work too?

[Playfair]

Firstly I will say that I am 100% supportive of good maternity leave (and paternity / shared), and understand the importance of supporting women to maintain a career, care for children or whatever else they wish.

I also acknowledge that maintaining birth rates is critical for society. And that maternity leave is spent doing work in raising a child.

Reflecting on my company's good maternity policy (about 6 months paid) and also some other institutions that have announced paid time off for those undergoing fertility treatment, it leaves me wondering about those of us without children (by choice or otherwise).

I'm in my thirties and will never have children. I'd love to have a small amount of paid time off (in addition to usual annual leave) to do some lengthy travel for example. I can't see why we can't have access to something similar if you haven't used any maternity benefit by a certain point.

There would obviously be benefits for society & business from developing new skills, morale etc. As well as women in work contributing to economy and through taxation.

So,

YABU - Women who choose not to have children shouldn't be entitled to anything else

YANBU - Women should be able to claim a small amount of extra paid time off if they stay in a career and contribute to business and societies success

But men are entitled to leave.

Split parental leave is very common these days, as are months of paid paternity leave. So childless men should get this ‘benefit’ as much as childless women

Fair enough but what about your “bitter childless women” comment? That was still out of order.

I think go and spent 3 months sleeping for only an hours stretch max at a time and decide if you'd prefer to be at work on normal pay with normal sleep or the alternative of sleep deprivation with no work but less pay. It ain't fun time.

I hear you and I think its a very valid point and something that should be explored. I think everyone needs a break at some point in their lives and not just because they have had a baby. There could, for example, be women who have done many IVF cycles to no avail. They deserve compassion leave to grieve their loss of no children as it's a very difficult process to go through both emotionally and physically and then no result. Yet currently they mostly just have to carry on.
Yes having children is hard work but its a very rewarding thing as well.

It’s really not

Especially when that hard thing 99% is an active choice and you have no real input into whether you get through it or not.

Maternity leave is not a holiday. We’d all like time off just to travel.

I agree maternity leave is more like sick leave. There are lots of reasons for getting sick leave that result from something a person has chosen to do.

Also, maternity leave is just a way of ensuring that women as a class aren’t discriminated against in the work place. Saying “oh everyone can have a paid six month holiday for what they choose” would defeat the object of that. Besides, what if you later got pregnant after you’d had your travel holiday? Would you then have to come straight back to work? Or can you not take it until you’ve passed the menopause?

I’m about to go on maternity leave with my second child and quite frankly I’m dreading it. I hated being so isolated last time (to be fair it was during covid) and spent the year with post natal depression and anxiety, while I love my daughter dearly it was, in many ways, the worst year of my life. However I think, and I accept there are different views and I may be wrong, that it was important for my daughter that I was there while she was so small and want to give my new baby the same care.

Maternity benefits are there to ensure that women have some support to be able fo have children which, as you acknowledge. has a societal benefit and, as others have pointed out, a personal cost (in terms of health, career prospects and finances). They are not a payment for someone to choose to do whatever they want and nor do I think they should be.

Now, I do agree with you that sabbaticals are beneficial to employees and, if they are done properly, to employers. So yes I think more companies should offer them. However, I see no reason at all that women who have children should not get them and women who don’t should. As for taxpayers money being used on it, no, I think there are much more important things for people’s taxes to be spent on than travel, whether the person going has children or not.

A substantial period of paid for travel sounds totally amazing, your idea would essentially create a massive prize to reward people who don’t have children - there are already enough disincentives for people to have children without creating another one (and making everyone pay for it).

Currently on maternity leave and i dream about being back at work!! It is so far from a holiday. Recovering from an awful pregnancy and birth too. I'd love a paid 6 months off sans baby!!

My point is however hard maternity is, it is a choice and if others choose not to draw down on this, they should be able to take some one-off time for whatever they do choose to do.

I think really you need to be a bit more wary of stating that having a baby is a choice… everyone should be. Especially in current times. Does your idea extend to places where abortion rights are not so liberal? Many children are planned. But many are also not. And I’m not just talking about what turn out to be happy accidents. Women, to be blunt, can be raped, they can be coerced into having children, emotionally manipulated and they can be in abusive relationships. You talking about time off for hobbies and travelling while failing to take the complexity of having children and reasons why some women have children into account is quite startling.

But that’s not a universal experience

Many get enhanced mat leave, and aren’t sleep deprived.

I totally agree with you - and I say that just about to finish a year of maternity leave!

@MeganCrossing but it's a fairly common experience.

I take your point. My post is really referring to the UK and I note how some countries (even western ones) have very questionable policies.

However, I do not believe we should design against exceptions such as those you describe - instead we should invest in preventing it happening.

it’s still a bit silly to say the OP should go and experience sleepless nights on hardly any money though.

As many women don’t go through that. For some women it is a holiday (mine was so I’m not being bitter about it either)

You've couched it in careful terms OP but your question is basically still 'why don't I get to doss about like mothers'.

You can save up, ask for a few months' unpaid leave, and if your employer says no then save up more and do it anyway.

You wouldn't want that as it's financially risky - so is motherhood.

Mat leave has its cappuccinos and park walks like the stereotype but it was also way harder than my paid job. Going back to work was like going on holiday.

@MeganCrossing well congratulations to you.

it’s not generally a mums site

there are many topics on here unrelated to children, many posters don’t have children and some are fathers.

I wonder where I stand, with 3DC but have never been paid maternity pay or had maternity leave.

Id like all three maternity leaves in a row please.

@MeganCrossing OMG please exit this thread now

The issue is that you are viewing maternity leave as a benefit. When, actually, paid maternity leave is an entitlement.

Women have to carry the baby, give birth to the baby, sometimes in traumatic circumstances, and then recover from this. In acknowledgement of this, women are now legally entitled to take leave following the birth of their baby.

Whilsy I wholeheartedly agree that we have a poor work / life balance in the U.K., and we could do more to address this, I don’t think it is helpful to use maternity entitlements as a comparison, or a reason.

Its just not the same thing. And is another perfect example of women once again being criticised for being entitled to something that they NEED following the birth of a child.

And all this crap about having children being a choice? I can’t even be arsed to respond to this.

If the OP had shadowed me and most of the women I know who have children her view on this would be validated if anything.

Thats all I’m saying. Maternity leave isn’t always hard, not all babies don’t sleep, not everyone struggles financially and not everyone isn’t able to travel with a baby. I travelled more in my mat leave than any other time in my life, it was great. I was on full pay for 7 months and got promoted on Mat leave too so came back to more money.

Just because you had a shit time doesn’t mean it’s common.

No thanks

I think part of the problem is that you refer to mat leave as a benefit. It's not though. It is something that helps offset the cost of having children (though it fars from covers it).

If you apply your reasoning to other things you'll see why it's faulty. For instance, people who don't manage well their money/career end up on UC. But it's a choice, they could have managed their money better. So everyone should be able to access UC, right ? Even those who don't need it ?

And what if someone gets that sabbatical then decides they want a child after all ? Should they pay back the money they were paid during the leave ? What if they can't ? Or maybe you should only get the sabbatical if you make yourself permanently sterile ?

I don't really see your idea working.

@MeganCrossing you like to have the final say don't you