To be upset by this situation with DD?

[ljs22]

DD 16 just came home from a friend's house on the bus. It's about a 30 min bus ride. She was upset when she got home saying a man roughly in his 60s who was clearly drunk (smelt of alcohol and was swaying when he got on the bus) had chosen to sit right next to her despite there being many other free seats. She said he stared at her and made her feel uncomfortable, put his face close to her when talking to her and told her she was really pretty etc. She was trying to ignore him and looking at her phone, messaging friends etc, and said he was constantly looking at what she was doing on her phone. At one point he also touched her arm because she had turned away from him in an attempt to ignore him. She said she wanted to tell him to move away but felt too scared to do so.

I don't know what I'm posting for. I suppose I'm just upset on her behalf that men feel this sort of behaviour is appropriate especially towards a teenage girl. DD is very pretty and attracts a lot of attention from boys her own age, but this feels different and almost bordering on harassment the way she described it.

How can I advise her to manage this in future?

I would 100% report this to the bus company. They will have cctv on the bus and they can alert the drivers to be aware of this person in the future. Involve your dd in reporting this. Theres more than one way to stick up for yourself. I can 100% understand why a 16 year old girl wouldn't necessarily tell a drunk old man to fuck off but there are things she can do after the event to assert herself and take back some control - such as reporting this to the bus co.

I cannot agree with this. Your whole post is making out that women have no choice but to be victims. There is nothing wrong with a 16 year old taking a 30 minutes bus ride at night. And public transport is not shit for women, the vast majority of the time it will be uneventful. And finally, no “any woman” would not struggle to be assertive in that situation. I think most would handle it just fine, on this occasion, OP’s daughter was not properly equipped to deal with it, but sounds like she will get some good advice and be able to handle it should a similar thing occur again.

I do think that each individual man should be assessed and dealt with individually. This happened to me in France when I was about 19 - I told him to fuck off, and the guy followed me off the train, threatened me and showed me his swastika tattoo. I ended up going into a shop. I wish for that one I'd just got up and left.

I used to sit in the aisle seat and put my bag next to me on the window seat to avoid this. I’d only slide over a free up the seat next to me if the bus was full and usually pointedly when another woman was getting on the bus. Usually busses at night are never full.

OP, sorry your DD experienced this, it’s not so much what he did but the fear he caused during the entire bus ride.

I was assaulted on a bus when I was 14. Some lads thought it would be funny to pin me in the corner, stick their hands up my shirt and cut my bra off my body & all that. I recently did EMDR to process this and it was hugely beneficial. So if your DD gets anxiety or nightmares, EMDR is something to consider MH wise to process and heal from the trauma.

Exact same situation happened to me in my early twenties and it still upsets me when I think about it (and there have been other worse assaults). I think just it being dark, on the bus more or less alone, and feeling completely trapped by the window, plus the uncertainty of how a drunk is going to behave - and mine was in a posh suit 🙄 - made me feel so helpless. Definitely recommend sitting close to driver and in aisle seat.

These situation always make me nervous for my two girls. My youngest I feel would pretty much tell someone to jog on if she felt uncomfortable, my eldest is much more gentle & would most likely freeze. Though who knows what would happen in any situation.

Yet again it’s up to girls to be the ones to move or cause a scene instead of a man just not being a twat. It wasn’t that mans first time at intimidating young girls so he being get away with it a long time - sad that the men - his friends couldn’t get together and tell him what he’s doing is wrong and make him uncomfortable with his choices.

I did a long journey involving multiple trains yesterday and have concluded that whilst my "polite" instinct is to take the window seat if I'm first to a double seat, thereby making it easier for someone else to sit, I should have taken the isle.

None of the men who sat next to me were awful, but even so it was uncomfortable to be "trapped" by them and I'm not an attractive teen. One had a water bottle filled with strong alcohol. He didn't appear drunk but he didn't stay in his space, elbow in my ribs for example and because of the drink I felt challenging him might be a risk. Another was just a very big man who didn't fit in his seat! There was physically no way he could have sat there without encroaching into my space.

I'm generally quite a confident feminist, it shocked me how passive I was in both these situations. I hope DD is OK.

You need to tell her to find her voice and use it. Practice comments outloud with her she can say to people invading her personal space. The trick is also to not let it get to a point where he sat down - as soon as it looked like he might sit next to her it’s better for her to move. She needs to understand it doesn’t matter if it looks like she is being ‘rude’ to a stranger who might make her feel uncomfortable.

I'm sorry this happened to her. My suggestion for the future would be to always sit in the aisle, that way if anyone makes a point of asking to sit beside her she can get up and move if she wishes. Or if she chooses to say she is free to move at any time.

I never sit in the window seat because it feels too trapped

Thanks everyone. I told her last night she doesn't owe anyone politeness - especially drunk pervy old men who invade her personal space. I told her she could report it if she wanted to.

She replied that she doesn't want to because (in her words): he didnt say or do anything wrong necessarily, it was just because he was so drunk and getting really close and kept whispering to her and touching her arm, and because he called her "pretty". She added - and I quote: "he was probably just being nice but i dont want old drunk men to be nice to me".

She's far too nice and polite for her own good and I need to teach her to find her voice, you're all right. I so wish I'd been there!! I'd have given him short shrift. I'm almost 40 myself and don't stand for this sort of bullshit. I just need to I still these qualities in DD too. Maybe it will come as she gets older?

I also feel like I let her down by letting her get the bus after dark. She's done this multiple times though and always been fine. The buses tend to be busy and she's never felt uncomfortable like this before. It's hard to know how much to protect her and allow her the independence to be a teenager.

Practice comments outloud with her she can say to people invading her personal space.

This is a great idea; we can do sort of a role play. Thank you.

Yeah she needs to toughen up and get assertive It would be lovely to live in a world full of people like your Dd but sadly we don’t. It’s like those posters who insist that the 50 something men at their work are their friends. Yeah right.

That's horrific your poor Dd , tell her to ring the bell to get off and then move down the bus near the driver and tell her not everything has to be polite and she doesn't owe anybody especially old drunk men an explanation.

No. Posting on MN for advice and being unable to sleep because of it, talking to my DD as per the advice provided on here, as well as internally beating myself up for allowing her to get the bus at night, are they precise opposite of minimising it.

I used that phrase because in all honesty I wasn't sure if this would amount to harassment from a legal perspective if it were reported, and I did honestly expect to be told I was overreacting on here. I wasn't sure if my anger about it was an overreaction. I see now from the replies here that it was not.

@Badgirlriri

Why the rolling eyes emoji?

She felt rude because she's a polite teenage girl who thinks about others, and so by sitting in the aisle seat she worries that someone will get on the bus needing a seat and view her as rude for blocking a free seat. She's incredibly socially anxious and a real people pleaser. We need to work on that. Massively.

If she doesn’t feel comfortable moving or confronting men in circumstances like this (and I understand, she’s probably afraid of them turning violent) then tell her to call you or her dad, loudly making it clear she’s on the phone to a parent and saying where she is (and that someone’s making her uncomfortable if she feels confident enough to). Making it clear she isn’t ‘alone’ and someone is aware of her whereabouts or what’s going on can be enough to deter them.

If it was my daughter I would be telling her to call me and I will come and meet her as well. I wouldn’t want the risk of him following her.

I think working on assertiveness is a good thing she doesn't need to be loud or make a fuss if that isn't in her nature but learning that sitting on an aisle seat is fine she doesn't have to let anybody sit next to her, or let drunk men annoy and harass her she isn't their entertainment.

And definitely get her to phone you or her dad,

Explain to her that sitting in the aisle / using her words isn't being rude. It's self preservation. She can still be polite and kind, but on her terms. She gets to choose who to sit next to and interact with.

Very sadly I must say be careful with the advice to girls. If they start swearing and shouting paedo the police tend to take a negative view of the girl. Remember Rochdale and all the others? Wc girls labelled as underage prostitutes even though there is no such thing. In fact the girls were often prosecuted and the men protected.
So the best thing is to be assertive, correct language and tell the driver at the time. Unfortunately coming across as middle class and assertive do not touch me, no I do not want you to sit next to me etc protects you more than fuck off you paedo, which usually gathers sympathy for the poor old misunderstood man, just trying to be nice to the girl. It is sickening.

It’s disgusting but it is nothing to do with being pretty. Misogynistic men will abuse any female who crosses their path. It’s about power, not attraction.

and it’s nothing to do with #BeKind

In fact it would be kind to tell the man to piss off. Someone needs to tell him.

I also feel like I let her down by letting her get the bus after dark

OP - please don't beat yourself up. It's perfectly normal for young women - sometimes it's essential - to take public transport at night. It's our job to encourage their confidence and independence.

There's no way my teen would be able to shout and swear at a random man so there's no point posters urging this. We can encourage our girls to take the aisle seat without worrying about being kind, to sit near the driver, to not feel obliged to engage with randoms on public transport.

And I'm going to go against the grain here and think for her sake you shouldn't blow this out of proportion because sadly it's always happened, will always happen and we need to acknowledge it's not right but it's what women have to learn to handle if they want to live independently.

Unfortunately as a lone women it's safer to sit in the aisle seat so you can make a quick escape if needed and no one can sit next to you, of course it's not as acceptable on a busy bus but an empty bus is fair game.

There is absolutely no reason for someone to be shouting and swearing, when she could call on the help of the bus driver. It would be different had she been actually alone.