Been waiting 12hrs for an ambulance

[Riggsisadino]

I know it's all in the news but ambulance wait times are ridiculous and I know it's mainly due to people in a&e not being moved onto a ward and ambulances not being able to move into a&e.
I am currently with someone with a dislocated hip and shoulder and we gave been waiting 12hrs. The pain is getting unbearable and I am struggling to reassure and calm and know what to do. They are saying that they have people in same catogory waiting longer to.
I feel bad for the person I'm with but can't help to think people who aren't sat inside or are on there own. I don't know what the answer is but something neeeds to change

Can someone please explain to me what has caused this situation?

My gran spent the last years of her life living on a supported estate. It was all bungalows, all with emergency help cords throughout, that went through to an employed team of wardens who did regular patrols too. That’s what’s needed. No idea about costs.

@Hoowhoowho couldnt agree more. I’m an overseas nurse and completely gobsmacked by what I’ve seen and experienced here in the NHS. Pitiable pay and a workforce heavily dependent on foreigners. I worked ICU during Covid and saw nearly no British nurses. Irish, Australian, Spanish, Portugese, Kenyan, Nigerian, Philipino, US, Canadian, Kiwis, Indian, and a very small handful of UK born nurses. (I’m in central London, perhaps more diverse here than elsewhere?)

And so in response to Brexit, there is now massive drive to bring nurses from the Philippines and India as EU nurses have left in droves. Many of the Uk staff I have met who continue to work in the NHS are somehow subsidised: they have lived in council housing for years and so have lower monthly outgoings, live with family, or themselves have inherited wealth. For many others it’s utterly impossible to get by on the wages offered. It’s shameful that the system depends so heavily on the goodwill of its staff. What I’ve seen recently (post covid) me nervous about having access to safe care, there are just too many gaps these days. It’s beyond unfortunate.

Chronic underinvestment in health and social care causing a structural issue in getting people the care that they need in the appropriate environment.

Failure to ensure safe working environments and appropriate levels of pay.

The goodwill has run out. They’re chronically understaffed and the staff they have are burning out.

The smaller community hospitals down here have been closed/reduced hours, not due to lack of money but lack of staff, inc the one my mum was in for many weeks in 2016, shut as a hospital, open between 0800 and 1800 now, no beds.

Whether people who voted for Brexit like it or not, the fact is many EU HCP left the UK & that is why we are now seeing the crisis in health.

So now we have Care workers/ nurses leaving the sector to work in higher paid non health roles.

We do not have enough people coming into the labour market to fill these jobs now - hence all the rush to get HCP's from SE Asia and adding care workers to the essential visa list.

This is really insightful, thank you.

My only query would be in respect of your last paragraph? Won’t there always be a supply of old folk?

One factor is definitely that people with non major issues use ambulances as a taxi service.

I’m no medic but it seems clear that if you have a dislocated shoulder and hip then you need an ambulance. However, a lot of people could (and should) be put in the back of a car and taken to a&e instead.

I work in the NHS, so I know how much pressure there is on the NHS, but I can also understand your situation. Give some painkillers and try to comfort the patient. Make sure there isn't too much movement.

Because mumsnet has revealed to me that some posters recommend others call 999 if they release a dodgy smelling fart kind of ailment

And the OP’s breezy update is always the next day or later that day to say they’ve been released and feeling considerably better already

Sounds like you live near me. It’s been a disaster from the word go. The super A&E covers too big an area.

@RosesAndHellebores

How will an insurance system help ambulance waits or the social and elderly care crisis?

How are European countries managing?

(I'll give you a clue, they're not)

Totally agree with pp who says we need to look at how the elderly are looked after. My MiL is 92 and regularly falls. If we can't get her up, (most of the time) we need an ambulance. If they arrive in a couple of hours they just get her up and check her over. However if we have can longer wait we need to go to A&E as lying on the floor can cause problems. On average this is one or twice a fortnight.

When my father-in-law died she was in hospital for 5 days waiting for her to be discharged despite having no illnesses apart from Alzheimer's.

I was chatting to one of the paramedics who said dementia sufferers were the most usual patients these days. There's a gadget that will lift her safely but it costs £3000+ and we can't find anyone who'll supply it secondhand or rent it. If we had that she wouldn't need an ambulance at all. Last year my FiL waited over 24 hours for an ambulance as he had urinary backup and was in agony.

Exactly this. It's not a surprise but nobody has actually put any plans in place even though there has been ample time to do so.

The situation is unworkable. However I've been working on a placement in urgent care, and I think people have to start realising that they are seriously contributing to the shit show. 3/4 of the patients we see come on for tiny things that can be managed at home (I'm talking things like I sneezed last weekend and now my shoulders are a little sore, and my sons finger hurt after playing conkers. Both real!). They are flooding a system already breaking under lack of finances and an ageing population.

European healthcare systems are coping just fine, they do not have issues with Ambulances at AE unable to discharge patients, nor millions waiting for treatment.

UK avg for an ambulance is over 58mins, in Germany, its 13mins, France is 12mins.

We have a unique UK problem with health services, so compare beds nurses, scanners and doctors per capita with EU countries and we are an outlier, nowhere else charges £9.25k p.a to become a nurse/AHP.

Until we accept this and stop pretending "oh its a european/world problem" we will never improve the situation.

Can't help but disagree somewhat with this although I am sure it is a factor in some case. My elderly MIL was in hospital for 3 weeks recently...she was waiting be discharged for the last 5 days of that but there were no hospital staff to do it. She had her care home, lovely bedroom with ensuite bathroom to go back to...but sat there in hospital...using up a bed that she didn't need. It's a disgrace.

You cannot safely move someone with a dislocated hip. Mine did this once, I was unable to move and it was agonizing. Certainly couldn’t have walked even with help. Plus even if you are physically strong enough to lift someone, there is still a risk of dropping the patient and causing even worse injuries. It needs to be done by proper medics with training and equipment.

Totally agree.

Regarding calling 999 for elderly fallers, I can't find the item now, but one CCG has introduced a rapid response unit that does this and nothing else. It is working really well, as a pp says, often they just need to be sat up and given a cup of tea. Often a carer will call 999 to lift a patient, seems crazy right?, but they are not allowed to lift them.

Finally, then I'm off, I can't understand why elderly people in nursing homes, not care homes, but nursing homes, for which you pay £2k a week, call 999 for sick patients. Again, a break down in community care. Often these patients just have an infection, and only need antibiotics. GP's should be covering this, or maybe even thee nursing homes themselves, not hospitals, but there again you have a whole other can of worms.

Someone with a dislocated hip and shoulder has surely been involved in a very traumatic fall and would have other injuries, even if superficial.

what happened op?

It's terrible..... and even at A&E there will be another long wait to be seen.

I was at A&E last week with my elderly father who had an infected toe turning black, 16 hours to see a doctor, 34 hours in a chair then another 22 hours on a trolly before being admitted.

So many really sick people in the waiting room, some lying on the floor. At one point there were 15 ambulances outside. The staff were amazing but totally overwhelmed.

How are European countries managing? (I'll give you a clue, they're not)

Hmm, well, you say that, but we have close family in the Netherlands and it seems like a much better system there. Their maternity care was light years ahead of ours, and GP service more accessible and seems able to prescribe drugs our NHS doesn’t due to cost. I used to defend the NHS when they expressed their disapproval of the U.K. system, and told me how much better it is there. But now I’ve given up. They’re right.

Recently Dh was on a cycling holiday in France with friends. One of them hit a kerb and came off his bike by the side of the road. Not badly injured, just cuts and bruises and a bit shaken. He was fine after 5 minutes sitting down and having a drink. As he was getting back on his bike, an ambulance pulled over. A passing motorist had seen him fall off and called the 999 equivalent. Dh and friends were staggered, and it brought home to them how much we have lost in the U.K. because that’s how it used to be, and how it should be.

Thirdly, I have Ukrainians guests. They have been shocked at how things are here. The system in Ukraine (before the hospitals were all bombed to shit) was much better than here. Having to explain to them that they couldn’t get an ambulance or a GP appointment just like that was difficult.

Honestly, it’s embarrassing. European systems are far from perfect but they are way better than what’s happening here. They actually work.

As a lifelong supporter of the NHS It pains me to say this.

What's caused it? Austerity policies since 2008?

having spent 3 months in hospital this year and 4 months last year. It is a complete shambles. On one shift there where three trainee nurses non of them being paid for their shift as they where training and not one of them was going to stay in the uk after qualifying.