Segregating group discussions about racialised issues

[Sparklybutold]

Currently training to become a psychotherapist and it has been decided to separate the group into those who are non white to have a space they can use to discuss racialised issues. I can't decide how I feel about this. I'm curious how others would feel about this? As a white person do I deserve a say at all? Or is it a missed opportunity to discuss things that as a white person I need to hear? FWIW given the nature of who's running the course it would not be wise for me to share my views on this with them so I wanted to explore it here instead.

@MangyInseam what are your thoughts on this?

I'm not racist and I would be pissed off if I was on your course and you tried to tell me I was the racist, while you were the one admitting to going around commiting racist aggressions.

There are plenty of black academics who know that crt is racist. Robin Diangelo wrote a whole book about how racist she is. In it she talks about being scared of black people and not knowing how to talk to them. How she makes shitty comments to black women about their hair. Yeah, because you are a racist, Robin. She assumes that because she is incapable of seeing black people as equal humans, everyone else must be too. And she makes a fortune going around telling other white people they are racist too. What a fucking grift.

I thought psychotherapists were supposed to have some insight into the human mind. Surely you should be able to recognise a grifter when you see one.

I understand the reasons for it and am a bit on the fence. But there is something deeply unsettling about segregation based solely on skin colour. Feels a backward step to me...

@MangyInseam this is all happening for me in a training setting and I'm realising that we're not being taught from a both sides of the argument way. It is CRT and this is that. But then as illustrated by the story earlier on, any deviation from this has massive consequences for people. It feels that the discussion isn't being had, which I feel is worse for everyone.

The targeting of my friend in this setting was completely uncalled for and missed the nuanced of her reply to the dear white America letter. By responding angrily and ironically judgement ally shut down the discussion before it even begun, and this was in front of all trainees. Can you imagine what this must have felt like? Any decision in thought would have had people shutting down immediately.

Personally I struggle to accept those who genuinely feel they are racist free/that they treat everyone the same/they don't see colour etc. Everyone treats people depending on so many factors, much unconsciously. I'm somewhat dubious when people completely refute this.

Well not all black scholars agree - and keep in mind that RD is a second rate scholar that makes a bundle out of running race workshops:

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/

daily.jstor.org/adolph-reed-jr-the-perils-of-race-reductionism/

www.city-journal.org/white-fragility

unherd.com/2021/06/antiracism-wont-save-you/

Just as examples. There are actually lots of black conservatives, or even black liberals like Trevor Phillips, who don't agree with this stuff. If it really convinces you that is one thing, but please don't believe that all black people think one thing about CRT.

@beastlyslumber i am simply trying to understand all viewpoints

@MangyInseam thanks for the info - I will take the time to look this up

Treating people differently due to unconscious biases based on past experiences is not the same as being racist.

I don't think we all have to say we are racist when we may not be. There are some people I'm more drawn to for a number of reasons, some of which I'm not aware of - eg. People with a similar trauma history I may feel a connection with, without either of us ever having vocalised it. Equally, since my entire childhood was spent with Asian friends in an Asian culture, I am sometimes drawn to feel comfortable with Asian people. Does that make me racist? I don't think so.

@TeaAtLast thank you for sharing your thoughts

Well I agree, your friend was treated badly.

But I think this shows some of the problem with this type of scenario. It was bad your friend was treated that way. And also it would be bad had some leader treated someone who thought differently as if they were a bigot for not accepting CRT.

I have to ask, in the end, what's the goal of these sessions, pedagogically?

People do of course respond to others from a whole host of experiences and thoughts and feelings. But that may or may not be along the lines of race. It almost certainly includes many things besides race. It by no means only includes white people, nor is it caused by "whiteness."

Most people don't name more minor feelings of this kind racism. In my job, I deal fairly regularly with some drug user populations. There are some of them who for various reasons really put my back up, although they have never caused me a problem. I have to be aware of my own response when I am helping them, and I hope I'm mainly successful. I also don't beat myself up about it because I understand that many of these responses, like in and out group thinking, or being wary of people who behave in a way that seems odd, are based in evolutionary survival strategies. Treating them like sins isn't useful, I can save that for things that actually involve my will being engaged.

The problem with people like DiAngelo is that they see racism as inherently attached to whiteness, which is just an updating of old fashioned race essentialism.

👀

I very much hope you will.

@MangyInseam thatnkyou for taking the time to respond. I fear my training to date when it has come to these types of discussions have been centered around one particular tutors viewpoint and any decision from this has massive consequences which just shuts people down. I have felt intrinsically something is off put haven't had the knowledge or bravery even to speak out about it, especially as I said, this same person - weilds the FTP card around at the slightest whiff of any deviation.

I'm not racist @Sparklybutold. I despise racism and racists, including the ones who try to convince themselves it's okay that they are racist because "everyone else is, too."

Guess what? Not everyone is a racist! A lot of people don't give a flying fuck about the colour of someone else's skin and would never dream of discriminating against someone on that basis.

Watching

White people do need to talk amongst themselves about racism.

And it needs to be a hard talk, with those like OP, who admits to carrying out 'micro-aggressions' but finds it difficult to talk to her white colleagues, some who profess 'to not see colour', and feels that sitting in on a non whites discussion group would aid her understanding/learning.

OP, CRT, academically may be a prominent platform for you to discuss racism amongst your colleagues, fellow students. But I do feel it's an area that white people have only just touched the surface. All of the blame does not lie at the door of constructs, we all have self will.

It’s interesting that this conversation - like lots of others - has ended up being a discussion of certain ways of understanding race and whiteness. What is love to see (on my training too) is more discussion of the concrete social inequalities that many groups face. Eg health inequalities, access to education, housing, prison, household income etc. This is really important context for therapists to understand - we live in a really unequal society where people who grow up poor, or disabled, or from certain ethnic minority groups have much worse life chances. It’s also less easy to dismiss than a concept like White Fragility that’s more abstract and easy to attack.

@Rotherweird I’m surprised that it isn’t, given that this is now rightly discussed much more, and the social determinants of health and mental health. Do you reckon this is across the board or a case of specific courses/institutions? As eg the OP mentioned her course has one tutor whose view takes centre stage

I just watched this and it just comes off as someone whinging in the same way that some men do when women complain about toxic masculinity etc.

@NicolaSixSix Im sure it’s not true of all training but I’d say it’s generally true. I’m only a trainee, but my sense is that the therapy world in general has come quite late to discussions of difference and diversity so there’s been a tendency to latch into some of the readings that got a lot of airtime post-BLM (eg DiAngelo) almost as a short cut into these discussions. Whereas it might be more useful to look at more specific work on eg intercultural therapy or as you say the social determinants of mental health.

My first reaction is that we don't leave in a segregated society (thankfully) so why have these discussions in separate groups?

I really don't think that is the way to deliver training in general or to learn more about each other.

Very arbitrary and divisive when you think about it. It just emphasis the idea of being ''other'' and that other people will never understand you or want to hear about your life experience.

I think it is fine to provide informal sub-support/chat group that people can choose to join voluntarily if they want to discuss specific issues but it should not be forced on people.

Why don't you comment that in the thread about it?

The difficulty with this in my experience is that when you try to look at inequalities mainly through a racialized lens, you tend to distort the picture. And then when, as a service provider, you relate to clients through that lens, you are essentially relating to a stereotype.

There are lots of poor white people from inner city communities, and quite a large upwardly mobile middle class black population. There are also significant sub-populations that have different experiences and cultural underpinnings - black, or Asian, covers a lot of different peoples. If you want to understand a client's situation, race based sorting is of limited help. Mainly it's about listening to the person in front of you and not making assumptions.

And that discussion also depends on good data on inequalities, which frankly is often not much in evidence in such discussions. People don't know how to interpret the information, or in some cases actually continue to believe in disparities that don't exist at all.

Of course it's great to understand more about the different situations people come from, but why race would be the primary lens for that discussion is less than obvious.

So the discussion for non whites happened. And it sounded awful. Two colleagues who didn't want to go were told ‘but the group was for you?!?’. They were ushered into the room with said organiser blocking the exit. Colleague stated she thought it was voluntary... She feels really angry about feeling segregated. I'm angry for her, but certainly can't say anything.