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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Segregating group discussions about racialised issues

124 replies

Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 14:48

Currently training to become a psychotherapist and it has been decided to separate the group into those who are non white to have a space they can use to discuss racialised issues. I can't decide how I feel about this. I'm curious how others would feel about this? As a white person do I deserve a say at all? Or is it a missed opportunity to discuss things that as a white person I need to hear? FWIW given the nature of who's running the course it would not be wise for me to share my views on this with them so I wanted to explore it here instead.

OP posts:
EmmaH2022 · 24/10/2022 18:40

Barbie222 · 24/10/2022 18:35

I think it's a good thing if it's led by the rank and file. If it's imposed as a 'we're aware, we do this' by leaders it often lacks nuance and gathers random not white people together who have little shared experience other than the fact they're not white. Same for many wide categories of experience, which someone has apparently decided all fit together.

It's also necessary to have the exhausting conversations with people who don't share your background at some point, and it's necessary to keep the culture across the organisation one in which people feel like they can ask questions of each other in appropriate spaces rather than just stop asking them at all (I think).

Interesting. I want people to stop asking questions based on my skin colour. I don't welcome personal questions at work.

PinkFrogss · 24/10/2022 18:44

DrDetriment · 24/10/2022 18:38

Segregation is never the answer. It highlights differences and allows 'othering'.

Difference is a good thing, and sometimes those differences matter.

Certain groups should be allowed to discuss matters relevant to them without input from others who do not understand, and may be consciously or unconsciously racist (or homophobic, misogynistic, etc).

PinkFrogss · 24/10/2022 18:44

But yes it should definitely be on an opt in basis and not manadatory

Porridgealert · 24/10/2022 18:54

Why don't you ask to to start single race groups, including an all white one? Then you can all have a safe place to discuss your concerns.

Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:05

@DamnUserName21 this is where my thinking is

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OoooSweetChildOMine · 24/10/2022 19:05

Could they not have both divided and mixed groups too?

Surely there's something people of different "races" can learn from one another.

Are they letting any "non white" people join the group? Who decides who is "not white" enough?

OoooSweetChildOMine · 24/10/2022 19:08

Are Latino people permitted for eg?

Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:08

@Rotherweird good question - I think at the heart for me is who's doing the dividing as I don't trust them.

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Woolandwonder · 24/10/2022 19:13

I think it's totally reasonable for part of the time. It gives people a safe place to discuss issues particularly relevant to them. My workplace (also therapy based) has a bame group. Obviously its important for there to be time/space to learn about issues around diversity/oppression/racism etc, but the onus isn't on other minority groups to teach you, that should come via other teaching or your own learning.

JamSandle · 24/10/2022 19:16

Seems strange to me as lumping all non-whites together assumes they have the same experiences and problems which they don't and is also weirdly othering of the white colleagues who might be discrimated against for being Eastern European/Russian etc.

OoooSweetChildOMine · 24/10/2022 19:17

Woolandwonder · 24/10/2022 19:13

I think it's totally reasonable for part of the time. It gives people a safe place to discuss issues particularly relevant to them. My workplace (also therapy based) has a bame group. Obviously its important for there to be time/space to learn about issues around diversity/oppression/racism etc, but the onus isn't on other minority groups to teach you, that should come via other teaching or your own learning.

Couldn't you just offer both options? Then people could decide for themselves which sessions they want to attend. Not all "BAME" people are the same!

MangshorJhol · 24/10/2022 19:18

But what about say lumping all women (of different races and classes together) and having an all women only space? Would people find that as problematic?

Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:20

@Cw112 I tried explaining white privilege to my colleagues who ‘didnt see colour’. It didn't land well.

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Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:23

@JamSandle kinda my thinking too

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JamSandle · 24/10/2022 19:23

MangshorJhol · 24/10/2022 19:18

But what about say lumping all women (of different races and classes together) and having an all women only space? Would people find that as problematic?

To me race is more complicated.

Although people are saying otherwise, there are men and women. Two groups.

There are many more ethnicities to make up racial groups. Each complex and with its own history and social norms.

I mean...a Japanese person is not White but nor are they a 'person of colour.' Or perhaps they are under the modern definition. But it all seems far too clunky...White people here and non-White people here. Again assuming no Eastern European people or people from the traveller community for example havent faced xenophobia.

Rotherweird · 24/10/2022 19:24

@EmmaH2022 Sounds like you have had some really intrusive experiences of people making assumptions about your heritage. I can understand why this would ring alarm bells for you.

Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:26

@MangshorJhol with the whole trans issue At the moment and with my views being more gc inclined I would avoid this at all costs. Which is a great shame of course but again comes back to the lead tutor who have a history of being judgemental and punitive. They have been guilty many times of being unaware of their own power (or potentially are aware but are reckless with it - don't know which is worst) and it is implied by the same tutor there is a hierarchy of discrimination. Sadly I do not feel safe to explore any issues during my training and I am learning (like many of my colleagues) to just keep my mouth shut.

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Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:29

I am simply exploring it here as I am learning to not do this during my training.

OP posts:
MangyInseam · 24/10/2022 19:34

ThatsTooFantastic · 24/10/2022 15:29

My first thought is who splits the groups up? I’m just thinking this could be very tricky for peoples right to privacy regarding their race or ethnicity, because contrary to some people’s opinions, you can’t always “tell”.

Do the lecturers decide on splits or is it learner/student determined?

I also think these discussions are often clumsy and lack nuance. What happens to people who may come from a Gypsy, Roma or Traveller background/community? Some would say Roma are not white, some would say the same for some Traveller groups, others not. In terms of discrimination faced by individuals is it fair to compare a white-passing middle class person of colour with a light skinned Roma person in terms of disadvantages experienced? If not, what is the utility of lumping them together in this context?

I’m also minded of the awful way a lot of US universities come at this issue and write off all “Asian” students as privileged when not only is it not the case but some kinds of privilege don’t preclude you from experiencing racist abuse or structural disadvantages.

FWIW our university tried this (MA in a Psychotherapy context) and it descended into a grievance session, which was obviously felt necessary by some students but others (some students of colour) found it really embarrassing and pointless. In terms of a learning opportunity I think it was wasted to be honest.
Plus it seemed like the only tick box the uni was doing to look at “inclusivity”, when the class issue was always neglected (loads of students of Psychotherapy and as a result trained therapists are from middle class and upper backgrounds - which was seen as not an issue despite it possibly being off-putting for working class clients who find themselves in therapy), and of course, as always, people with disabilities largely unrepresented or accommodated in terms of demographics of therapists.

I think these courses need to be specific about why they are addressing these issues, to what end, I think if it’s to make some students feel better that’s fine, but ultimately it should be about ensuring therapists are properly trained to work with a diverse group of people. Treating every “person of colour” like that one person from your course with a particular viewpoint is not the way to go. Is it so that future clients feel comfortable with you? Who is to say that a black woman would want a black therapist, especially if she wanted to discuss issues she felt within her family/community? In some cases finding therapists who are relatable is difficult, not least because therapy is awkward and vulnerable. On the other hand having someone who reminds you of your roots can be triggering, especially if you are seeking to address childhood/familial trauma. I think it totally depends on the client and their needs, which can’t be easily planned for in advanced in a couple lectures or seminars. If you as a trainee are willing to learn and critically analyse but not place yourself necessarily at the centre here, it could be a valuable learning experience.
I do think it’s sad that you don’t feel able to bring this up to your institution, but not surprising.

Hope your university manages it better than mine did !

Yes, this.

There can be reasons to do this, but not usually in a university training type session, and in most cases it's poorly done and actually detrimental. It serves little purpose, some people feel singled out in a way they dislike, it inevitably only includes certain groups.

The other element that is potentially worrying is that if you are doing this, all of a sudden you are putting all the white people together in a group, as an identity, and I always wonder how long it will take before they start asking the same kinds of identity questions and triggers. Which seems not good to me.

Barbie222 · 24/10/2022 19:34

I agree with you that membership of these working groups should be voluntary @EmmaH2022 . I'm not sure whether OP is talking about this or a sort of separated teaching arrangement. As a mixed race person with even more mixed race children, I always feel a little off about any kind of boxing up along racial lines.

That's not to say that having space to be with others who share your experience isn't valuable, but it all comes down to the fact that we often don't share as much as it looks like we might, which results in division and debate within these groups as they splinter away. That helps no one.

Also agree it is a pain answering questions about your heritage at work but sometimes it's a way into people understanding more.

JamSandle · 24/10/2022 19:37

Barbie222 · 24/10/2022 19:34

I agree with you that membership of these working groups should be voluntary @EmmaH2022 . I'm not sure whether OP is talking about this or a sort of separated teaching arrangement. As a mixed race person with even more mixed race children, I always feel a little off about any kind of boxing up along racial lines.

That's not to say that having space to be with others who share your experience isn't valuable, but it all comes down to the fact that we often don't share as much as it looks like we might, which results in division and debate within these groups as they splinter away. That helps no one.

Also agree it is a pain answering questions about your heritage at work but sometimes it's a way into people understanding more.

Just wanted to say I fully agree with you.

WooWoox2 · 24/10/2022 19:40

Considering you’re displaying white privilege in action, I hope you can maybe start to reflect on why this is necessary.

you’ve taken this and turned it onto how it impacts you, not even thinking why those of different races might want a separate space.

Towelling · 24/10/2022 19:41

I think it’s outrageous for the course to imply that jews and roma aren’t subject to racism. Non-white vs white is much too crude. As a ‘non-white’ person who was raised poor I highly resent this complete fixation on my race, with no consideration given to education, social class and poverty, which have been much bigger causes of disadvantage to me.

MangyInseam · 24/10/2022 19:42

WooWoox2 · 24/10/2022 19:40

Considering you’re displaying white privilege in action, I hope you can maybe start to reflect on why this is necessary.

you’ve taken this and turned it onto how it impacts you, not even thinking why those of different races might want a separate space.

What are you talking about, that is precisely what she asked.

And why shouldn't she be as able to think about how it affects her as any other person?

Original poster
Sparklybutold · 24/10/2022 19:47

@WooWoox2

Have you read my responses at all? I understand the need for these type of spaces, but I am struggling with how it's being executed and the fact I can't discuss this. This doesn't sound very privileged at all.

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