To think it's not normal for over 35% of teachers to have cried at work this term?

[Postapocalypticcowgirl]

Whenever we talk about teacher working conditions, teacher strikes etc on here people always point out that lots of others have really stressful jobs. But this can't be normal in any job, surely? It's not even people who've cried about work- just people who've cried at work.

I think this is really indicative of the stress a lot of teachers are under, and the real reason a strike is on the cards. But it's hard to strike about workload/stress/behaviour/parental and SLT expectations- whereas striking over pay is legally straightforward.

@MytummydontjigglejiggleItfolds

I never tried to compare. Other people have brought in different jobs and made comparisons. They are pointless because it is not a race to the bottom, nor is it helpful.

I can only speak of my own experiences. In my experience schools are at breaking point. I am hearing the same issues from colleagues from schools all over the place.

From an education perspective things are worse than they have ever been and borderline dangerous for staff and pupils. Which is probably why so many teachers are having breakdowns and leaving and then not being replaced. This making the whole situation worse.

So who actually cares which profession has it worse for which reasons. It is a circular and pointless conversation. It won’t stop staff and pupils being attacked in school. It won’t find more staff to cover those who have left and it won’t stop school staff having break downs.

Only better funding for schools and social care and the NHS will do that. The whole thing is so intertwined.

Agree! Of course! You have other professions trying to help these children and feeling very similar to you.
I'm asking (like you) for the race to bottom sort of comparisons to stop. Not because I think any one has it easier than the other, but because it just drives a wedge between people who are natural allies. That's all I have said throughout this thread. I'm actually being supportive and I'm getting treated like I'm being the opposite because people get so dug down in their own trench. I get it, it can be a symptoms of burnout and overwhelm, I'm just practically begging for it to stop because it's hurtful to other professions to have to read and hurtful to teachers who lose support that way.

I'm not a teacher. I'm not sure if I should be honoured or offended. 😋I have however seen firsthand the difficulty in engaging services. It is not the fault of the services, but ultimately there is a difference in response when the individual is sat in front of you rather than it being another phone call. This is often the case with teachers or other third sector organisations.

My point was more about the absolute brokenness of the whole system, there is no longer a safety net, just a massive gaping black hole.

There will be more front page headlines , more serious reviews and more lessons learnt, but yet nothing will change.

@WhiteFire

You honestly think education is the only service staring at the black hole?

And neither are teachers?

Out of many, I can pick one. Paediatrics.
Would you agree that a profession that houses, cares for, feeds children who would otherwise require massive social care input is 'supporting social care'?
And this situation often goes on for many, many months.
None of the staff on an acute medical ward are trained for this situation at all. Yet they are their surrogate parents, caregivers, friends. They protect them from (often angry, violent and abusive) relatives or peers, keep them safe, prevent their suicide attempts as best they can, cut them down or patch them up when they can't, bear their rages and tantrums and tears and try to help them emotionally, try to give them some stability, 24 hours a day 7 days a week with no medical reason. There is no medical indication for that child to be where they are, with the staff that are there, there is just 'no placement available'. It's damaging for all, the young person becomes institutionalised, dependent and the staff are given all the responsibility and no agency. And as much as 1/3 of acute paediatric medical beds are used for that purpose, and that was last year - it will be worse this year.
Now, Paediatrics isn't my profession, but even I know that they are bearing the brunt, and they are supporting children's social care enormously at great cost. All the HCAs, nurses and doctors involved will be supporting these children in purely non-medical ways, outside of any job description, in lieu of social care.
With all due respect, schools do close. Who do you think gets troubled kids through the nights and the weekends and the holidays? Where do they go when they are in crisis even though there is no medical need?
Who houses them when they are too violent for their placements? Or it breaks down? Or an allegation is made? Who is open 24 7 and can't discharge a child if it isn't safe?
That you don't think anyone in the entire NHS is supporting children's social care like teachers is really hurtful, actually.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/13/sharp-rise-in-acute-medical-beds-occupied-by-children-with-mental-health-issues

Not sure I actually said that. I think I said "the whole system is broken"

Again: I didn’t say teachers. I said education. Education is bearing the brunt of child social care.

Paediatrics does excellent work in extremes of cases.

@WhiteFire

So your post meant more than education?

That did not come across.

@noblegiraffe

Yeah. Whole point ruined. 😆

Did you take any of what I said on board? These aren't extreme cases. This is run of the mill. This is 1/3 of beds.
I think giving long-term placements with 24/7 support and safety to children who should be the responsibility of social care is supporting children's social care, don't you think?
Don't you think 'health' might be on a par with 'education' in that way? Paediatrics is part of healthcare, like teachers are part of education, you don't think both those professions are bearing the brunt?

I took it on board but it’s not true to say that healthcare is bearing the brunt of child social care more than education, because it isn’t.

And that's just a small cohort and one example of the way Paediatrics bears the brunt.
If you can't even consider the possibility that there's more than one profession trying to get these kids safely through to adulthood then I'm not going to engage.
I've given your profession the respect of acknowledging what you do and you seem unwilling or unable to do the same.

How can you possibly say that? So all the different facets of healthcare that have any interaction with children aren't bearing the brunt as much as education? What makes you say that? How could you even say that?

No, you asked who was bearing the brunt of childhood social care and the answer is ‘education’. That doesn’t mean that other services aren’t propping up social care cuts.

I didn't ask who was bearing the brunt. I know who is. You asked but you clearly already know everything.
I have never once tried to diminish the challenges education faces and the enormous task those within it are being given. Shame you are unable to give that respect back.

So you, who doesnt work in paediatrics, thinks paediatrics are doing more than education to support all child social care? And this is you not diminishing the challenges education faces?

I have never said more than/less than. I have spent my entire time on this thread trying to say there are other professionals who will know where you are coming from, who are feeling the same thing, who are facing similar challenges, who are also supporting social care (as an example). There does not have to be a hierarchy. It's a stupid tactic, isn't it? To put people against each other. How's it working out for you? Do you feel supported now? Do you feel like you've got me onside? Do you feel heard and appreciated? Or do you feel antagonised and like no one understands you? Do you feel worse and more pissed off and alone?
The emotions in education will be present in other professions. You don't need to pit them against each other. You don't need to say who is at the bottom and only dole out sympathy to the lowest. You don't need to argue with anyone saying 'you are not alone, I'd support you in taking whatever action you feel necessary to improve your conditions', but you have. More fool you.

‘Bearing the brunt’ means ‘doing more’:

To bear the brunt or take the brunt of something unpleasant means to suffer the main part or force of it.

it’s here;

www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/to-bear-the-brunt-of

I don’t feel any of those things. Teaching is a tough job but it’s a rewarding one, as I’ve said many, many times.

So you're just argumentative for shits and giggles?
As a PP said, everything is so intertwined. There will many professions bearing the brunt. The brunt is big. There is room enough for all.

WTF? It literally means ‘doing more’, that’s the definition of the word. It doesn’t mean ‘everyone doing their bit’, it means ‘doing more’. It doesn’t mean ‘there is room enough for all’ - although I’d be absolutely delighted if there was enough money swilling about to make that true.

Be as pernickety as you like. It's like saying 'his face bore the brunt of the fall' and arguing over whether the nose and the mouth could get hit at the same time. There are many bearing the brunt of the crisis, because the crisis is more than one thing. It's complex and far reaching. I think it's stupid to try and set up a hierarchy, you don't. Fair enough. Let me know how that tactic goes for you for gaining support.

But I’m not the one who nipped at posters about who was bearing the brunt of childhood social care, only to claim it was paediatrics all along!

It makes zero difference to education when other professions have it worse. It changes nothing. But pretending black is white is a totally different thing. Teachers don’t need public support - education does. Education bears the brunt of childhood social care, to the detriment of that education, and that’s a fact. Too bad if you want to pretend that’s not true, it is.

I have never said Paediatrics is bearing anything more than Education. I have used Paediatrics as an example for one other profession (out of many) who are bearing the brunt/feeling the pressure/trying to hold back the flood whichever phrase pleases you, because you asked for one. I didn't throw it in as a gotcha, you pressed me for it and it's a valid example and you dismissed their entire experience instantly.
If you look at my earlier messages, you will see I said exactly the same as you. That teachers shouldn't bank on public support or understanding, it doesn't translate into better pay and conditions, and they'll get flak if they take industrial action no matter what so they might as well do it, as it's too important not to. Teachers and education are too important to be feeling this way.
It does make a difference to all the intertwined professions how conditions are - it's all linked and workloads/pressures get shunted from one to the other, as is obvious. T&C's for one can be a useful precedent for the other. I've never ever gone down the road of 'who has it worse'. I've advocated for the similarities to be noted rather than the differences.
One example. Baby had a cardiac arrest. Whilst trying to save it troubled teenager came into the ward corridor screaming and threatening to kill themselves, because favourite staff member rushed to baby, found a sharp whilst staff were away with baby. Now that teenager had no reason to be in an acute hospital. None whatsoever. They were being housed, fed and cared for at considerable cost to the NHS as a way of bailing out social care. That feeling of - fuck, I shouldn't be being asked to do this, it's unfair to expect me to have the responsibility of keeping this young person safe, I have a whole other job to do on top of this, I should never be put in this position, I can't believe this is it now, that things are this bad and this is what we're being routinely asked to do, I haven't been trained for this, there surely should be a service for this young person', that feeling, familiar to many teachers, right?
And staff quit because of instances like that. That's not why they got into their profession, its an act of self preservation to jump ship. So highly trained healthcare staff who can deal with the stress of life/death situations can't deal with the stress of being stand in social carers, because that isn't their calling.
So everybody loses.
That feeling of 'this has gone too far now, I actually can't keep it together and I shouldn't be asked to', that's present in so many professions. And so many work with children.
So when teachers cry at work or take unpopular action to try and improve their lot, there will be many, many people who know exactly where you are coming from. There are many professions dealing with mentally or emotionally unwell children who are just not set up for it and the level of risk involved.
Nitpicking at them and telling them they don't have it as bad as you it not only annoying but it's not in your interest either.
There will be far more similarities than differences between many working in the public sector.
Jumping on them, sending them dictionary definitions and being snarky isn't going to be productive.

@Pumperthepumper 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I work in a hospital and in the staff canteen I often see staff (both clinicians and admin/ support staff) upset so teachers are not unique in this unfortunately.

It's awful

Nobody should feel like this at work