To think fairy tale promote a dangerous narrative.

[Mollymoostoo]

My DD (aged 10) has been reading the book series 'The school for good and evil' qnd this has prompted discussions about how dangerous fairy tales are in perpetuating stereotypes and outdated attitudes. For example....
Prince Charming kissed Snow White whilst she was asleep (consent issues)
Red Riding hood naively trusted a stranger in the woods and had to be rescued by a father figure.
Belle put up with the beasts behaviour even though he was aggressive, falling in love with her captor.
Beauty is seen as good, ugliness evil.

AIBU or is it time to rewite the narrative with balanced perspectives. I am not saying go to the extreme of getting rid of heros, but we need to stop putting pressure on boys to be rescuers and girls to be passive in their own stories.

Childless couples are always sad, pathetic people.

I agree. I also think we shouldn't promote the idea that a women needs to find a 'prince charming' to live happily ever after! Fairytales are dangerously outdated.

You'll probably get some replies calling you too 'woke' though!

This definitely needs to be changed. It tells society that not having children means a person is less than.

Well they’re fictional for a start. As long as they’re explained as what they are and children are given a broad range of fiction which also includes strong female characters, there’s no issue with them. Are you also going to ban most of the classics because they’re full of outdated stereotypes?

YANBU, but this is a debate that’s (rightly) already been given lots of air time - just one example of a result that came up when I searched for ‘rewriting fairy tales’ - www.bbc.com/culture/article/20190402-is-it-time-to-rewrite-fairy-tales

If you look online this actually has been talked about many many times. It’s not some new fangled idea and there’s lots of literary criticism on fairytales that you might find interesting. That’s why lots of Disney movies are moving the other way now and prioritising other ideas.

Lol. My older children would say I am far from woke. I actually think it is important to use these stories to critique. We watched the first Twighlight movie and critically analysed the plot, relationships and reality of how dysfunctional the relationship was.
I'm working on my MA on virtue ethics so this is a hot topic in our house!!

Thanks for the link!

Also it’s not really about being ‘too sole’ for me - when it comes to ‘rewriting the narrative’ you’re acting as if the only options are old fairytales in which a handsome Prince saves the Princess. There is a wealth of children’s literature out there that’s already ‘rewritten the narrative.’ So while I agree that the classic fairytales have some issues, it’s not as if you’re suddenly hitting on something that needs changing - it’s been discussed in depth for years and many books and films don’t follow those old ideas.

And in almost all of them there's at least one parent dead (usually the mother).

Read the World’s Wife with them if you want an alternative take.
Poems by unheard women in mythology and fairy tales. You have to be careful as there’s quite a bit of swearing.

And as for Twilight, that’s old hat! It’s written specifically by her (a Mormon) to promote her values. Dressed up cleverly with vampires and werewolves to make it palatable to a teenaged female reader. Plenty of criticism about that online too, the problems there are widely acknowledged even in the books’ own fan base.

One thing I do think is still problematic and unfortunately I still see is the ugly is evil, beautiful is good narrative. I understand where it comes from and conceptually what it’s about but it annoys me. I was talking about this with dd recently as we’re reading Harry Potter together and we were struck by the fact that looks don’t always match with the person’s moral character. So, in Chamber of Secrets, Tom Riddle is exceedingly handsome and well spoken. Hagrid isn’t handsome, traditionally charming, or well spoken. And we see how that plays out and it’s interesting to talk about. In a lot of books for children you can pick out the evil person because they’ll be fat/have warts/have some disability etc. While the good ones will be pretty/pleasant looking.

I was raised in a very strict house where only bible stories were allowed and to be honest, those were even worse. Stories of rape, murder, child sacrifice.
Although these a stories, the message they portray is still harmful. There are some great movies now I agree, but just look at films like 50 shades, how far have we actually moved on? Some women couldn't get enough of that drivel.

Sorry, but my honest response is, have you been living in a bubble? How can anyone have reached adulthood, and had a child, to whom you evidently provide books, and not know this has been done? Marina Warner? Princess Smartypants? Oh, I don't know, a good third of the available offerings in the picture book section in your local library?

I love this example! Society places so much value on the way a person looks and dresses and this is seen as an indication of a person character.

Religious bubble. I won't name the religion but there are many adults still very restricted to what they have access to.

But we already know fairytales and folklore are full of outdated ideas.

Thanks I will check these out.

That’s why we read Prince Cinders and Princess Smartpants and the Ruby Redford and looked at Jessica fletcher and other royal models

These are not new musings by any means. I haven't been under a rock.
What has brought this to the fore is the book series DD is reading. They show how trying to change a narrative can lead to extremism. I think it is good to keep having discussions. To say something has already been talked about is unhelpful as the agenda needs to be kept going if society is going to change.

Even looking at how society views people, our own generation's views are not that far from our grandparents. Things haven't changed much. And where people are tying to make changes, we are going to the extreme, where another person's view must be accepted no matter what.

You're right but there is so much material and discussion about this that it's now become a jumping off point for discussion - as you are finding with your 10 year old. Even with my 3 year old, I will say things like "that's a bit silly isn't it, waiting for a prince to come to the rescue!" And there are loads of alternative takes on fairy stories out there - Bethany Woolvin is good. So you can provide lots of alternative views.

Love this! Jessica Fletcher as a role model....brilliant. she was tenacious for sure.

I find the comments about these being just stories interesting. Let's take the Handmaid's Tale. Is this just a story? Look at the Taliban, banning education for women, strict dress codes and restrictions on movement etc. And issues in Iran.
These are lived realities dressed up in stories to make the bitter pill easier to swallow.

I love fairy tales but I also agree. Definitely get your DD a copy of Angela Carter’s The Bloody Chamber for some feminist fairy tales and for yourself you may enjoy Gilbert and Gubar’s Madwoman in the Attic. Their criticism of Snow White (woman trapped in her home made to do domestic duties for emotionally stunted men and every time she tries to escape her domestic servitude is punished with death) is excellent.