No first aiders at train station

[Mushroomlady]

An older woman tripped and fell in front of me on the station platform while running for a train today. She was very badly injured. I've been first aid trained for work so was able to help - removed her broken glasses, laid her down on her side, stemmed the bleeding (quite heavy), bandaged her up, shaded her from the sun, talked to her, etc. I asked if any of the station staff were first aiders and the answer was no! There was about 4 of them. I had to shout at them to call an ambulance, but it was another passenger that called as the staff were dithering and seemed quite clueless.

Aibu to be absolutely shocked about this? They are dealing with hundreds of passengers per day. How is it not essential that they have a certified first aider on site at all times?
Should I complain? Assume they would need to log it in accident book?

I’m with you OP. Like you say, put an event on for the public and you need first aiders. So why would a business which deals with the public in large numbers with, as you say, the risks of tracks/trains/etc, not need to?

Dont even get me started on schools not needing to have everyone be first aid trained.

@JennieTheZebra if you are trained that's all well and good.

I'm often in a situation where it's just me and sometimes in excess of 500 people.

I had a half day first aid course almost 19 years ago when I started my job. Since then nothing. Of course I would try to help - but I don't have much confidence in what I'd be able to do beyond common sense stuff.

She didn't fall on her knees. She fell flat on her face and was wearing glasses so they smashed into her face . At least one tooth was on the floor. She has a very deep cut on her hand which I assume would need stitches. She was visibly shaken and I thought she was going to properly pass out. I was worried about concussion or shock.

It scares me that we keep hearing that ambulance waiting times are getting longer and longer and yet in busy public places there are few people able to help - only random passerbys. Thank goodness the paramedics did actually arrive relatively quickly.

No you don't "need" first aiders if you put on an event. You have to do a risk assessment, which may, or may not, determine that first aiders are in attendance, dependant upon risks etc.

Even then, an "event" is a relatively short duration, maybe just a few hours, so your first aid "provision" could be as simple as getting the local St John ambulance to send a couple of volunteers for a few hours. That's completely different to some people who seem to think that a 24/7 attendance everywhere is appropriate (and ruinously expensive!).

I was a volunteer special constable for a few years. As well as regular patrols, we did a lot of "events", for traffic control, lost & found people/property, a visible deterrent against pick-pockets, anti-social behaviour, etc. Some of those events involved hundreds of people (a few involved a few thousand). We weren't required to have first aid training, but some of us did it voluntarily via the local St John's ambulance to get our first aid certificate. I think I did mine after a couple of years.

Have to say it was VERY superficial and basic and didn't improve my confidence to actually deal with any medical incident that I may have been called to or came across. The most useful things were the warnings about things NOT to do, i.e. to guard against potential spinal injuries, and the critically most important thing was to ensure that someone had called an ambulance or on site medical team. It was very much a matter of "protecting" the person until someone who knew what they were doing arrived. Of course, we did CPR training, but were strongly warned not to attempt it until it was blatantly obvious that life was at risk and there was no one else around better experienced/qualified to do it!

A train station that only has 4 staff on does not sound that big. A lot of stations are not manned at all at times.

I agree that very basic First Aid training should be something everyone knows. I was a teen in the 90s, and we did it in school. I have no idea if it is even on the curriculum anymore. I say very basic, as there is a lot more to it than CPR, recovery position and raising a bleeding limb.
You also need to be able to remain calm and focussed. I used to volunteer for St John Ambulance, and trained as an HCP (although CPR training was the only bit that was hands on.. the rest was looking at photos online and doing a quiz ). Nowadays, even though the knowledge stuck with me, I would be absolutely useless in a crisis.

Well done anyway for helping the lady.

I worked in a job involving event management for decades. It never occurred to me or my clients to have a first aider in attendance. You’re being ridiculous.

If I risk assessed a train station I would deem it necessary to have first aid trained staff on. Would you? (Genuine question, not being confrontational)

it isn’t ruinously expensive to put your staff through basic first aid training is it? I’m not saying anything fancy but basics would help.

The nhs is really struggling, and all of us having basic first aid training would help. Less ambulances called, less a and e trips (ok obviously this isn’t the answer to fix the nhs lol but it would help) and in an emergency time counts so I don’t see why it would be something people are against.

Im not talking about suing culture and ohh everyone needs to be looked after culture. I just don’t get why don’t people want a high level of basic first aid skills in this country?

Exactly my thinking. It seems like an environment where lots can go wrong. High volume of passengers of all ages and walks of life, live railway tracks with high speed trains, risk of terror attacks, attempted suicides or other accidents. People running for trains and tripping must happen frequently. But it's also not unusual for people to be taken ill on the train and to disembark at the nearest station.

To be clear, I'm not expecting small or rural stations to have first aiders, but ones with a large volume of people passing through, I would think it would be on their risk assessment.

Staff are there to man the station and ensure station s are open, working etc for public to use.

It does cost companies Heck of a lot of money for training staff and it would end up being a regular training course to keep it fresh. Then there is cost of covering staff to go on training. It a adds up.

Then imwven id they were trained and they moved someone and it caused further damage they would most likely get sued.

And station staff don't eaen huge salaries , so if they are expected to have additional responsibilities like being able to administer first aid they would rightly so want to be renumeration for the additional duties. But Joe public don't like train staff or station staff warning decent wages cos u know they all on over 50k apparently 🙄

My son had an accident in Boots - they had no first aider in the store and refused to even get me an antiseptic wipe and plaster. I had to buy them and sort him out myself.

First aid is exactly that... the first bit of aid. People do it to keep the patient safe and stable until professional help arrives. It is not a replacement for ambulance or A&E.

Crazy. I too would have thought there would be at least some kind of accident protocol even if the there wasn't a first aider! I can't believe they didn't ring an ambulance.

Well done you though op

Some posters seem to think that I'm suggesting that staff should be trained paramedics. I'm talking about basic first training, perhaps every 3 years to keep it up to date - just covering what to do if someone injures themselves or passes out, how to do basic CPR, how to know when to call an ambulance, signs to look out for - just until help arrives. I actually don't think it's too much to expect train station staff to have this.

@Mushroomlady one word "money"! The government want less staff. And they certainly don't want to "waste" money they don't legally have to spend, training the staff they've got

As others have mentioned, first aid training would be of little use with live tracks and speeding trains.

In an ideal world everyone would have first aid training. But at a time when some rail companies are looking to get rid of essential staff, I don’t think they’ll be looking to pay for people to go on courses. They are running on empty as it is with staff levels.

Are you 100% certain that they didn’t message for someone to call an ambulance? It seems very odd to me that they stood by and watched.

If you truly believe this to be the case, then complain to the Station Manager. I suspect that they would have contacted someone to arrange assistance but in the moment, you might have missed it.

I don’t know if I’d completely agree (in all cases), though I do see what you’re saying.

But even if this is the case, time still matters and someone putting someone in the recovery position can mean the difference of life and death so it just makes sense, to me, that people have a bit of an understanding of basic first aid.

I'll just pop this here for folk who want to look at the underpinning legislation. www.hse.gov.uk/firstaid/legislation.htm

Ultimately the Risk Assessment is the legal requirement and this should provide due diligence - which is basically a defence against allegations of negligence by failure to provide FA cover - and bear in mind the absolute limitations of such a provision. Large scale public events will have an H&S plan and associated RA which will indentify needs and level of cover required. And there there are other legislations such as the Sports Ground Safety Regs which put a further burden on locations and providers to comply with the law. It is a complex area at times and often H&S advisers are required to keep providers right.

Mad as it is, I worked in a Ambulance HQ and there was a requirement to have a First Aider on premises during working hours (M-F 9-5) because of the civilian staff who worked in the admin office, managers, vehicle mechanics and cleaners etc. Even though there was a fully functioning Station on site with multiple Paramedics - the reality was the qualified staff were not permanently on site therefore FA provision needed to be there when the staff numbers were above 25. A point proven when a vehicle fell off ramp onto a mechanic when there were no ambulances on site!

Yeah I was going to say this and I live in zone 2 London.

I’m not actually sure what time they finish or if some staff come back for the return home rush hour (I’ve not paid much attention tbh) but it’s often not ‘manned’.

There's no "perhaps" about it.
If provision of First Aid cover is deemed necessary there must be staff member available to provide this who has a current, in date certificate - these last 3 years.
The content of a first aid course is set out as a qualification (Level 3 First Aid) and has a set regulated curriculum.
There is a Level 2 Emergency Aid course, See here for FA training levels explained..

The RMT fought hard for years to retain Train Guards for these very reasons, the proposition of train companies to reduce trains to driver only function leaving only one person on board to handle emergencies and provide customer facing support.
The train companies have made it very clear that passenger safety is not their top priority.

@ArcaneWireless

No, they didn't call. Two of the staff were moaning about how long ambulances take to arrive and I got the impression that they thought it was pointless calling one. That's when I shouted at them to call. Another passenger called in the end. Honestly this poor woman was in a dreadful state. Ambulance definitely needed.

@Poshjock
Thank you. That's really helpful info and makes a lot of sense.

They are forever making calls out for 'doctors/nurses' at the large station I commute into. I too have been surprised by the lack of in house 'first aid support'.

They may not have called but they may have sent a message for someone to call for an ambulance. If you say they did nothing at all then that needs to be addressed.

If they were ‘moaning about how long ambulances take to attend’ could it be that they were expressing their frustration after calling them?

Which station was it?

Maybe this is their agreed strategy for dealing with medical emergencies. They did an announcement on the train (which had stopped) and a very nice off duty paramedic hopped out for a few minutes which was brilliant, but then he had to hop back on because the train was leaving.