Trip to Pakistan with dad or grandmother - identity card or visa on British passport?

[FeelingGuilty151]

So I was wondering about what would be the most sensible thing to do as my nana and dad have suggested that I go to Pakistan with either of them next year at some point when they go

They suggested I apply for a Pakistani identity card (NIPOC or Pakistani origin card) for overseas Pakistanis and their relatives and offspring as it would give me indefinite visa free access to the country with no restrictions, allowing possible employment, bank account creations and buying land. Or the alternative is a time restricted visa

I am more swayed towards applying for a visa on my British passport as perhaps the identity card could cause issues with the British Home office from helping me if I ever needed to be brought back to the UK

what would you suggest I do?

Putting a visa on your UK passport would be your best bet. But your absolute bestest bet would be not to go at all.

Don’t go

So... Please don't go and don't apply for any ID card. Even if you willingly go to Pakistan, the power dynamic would be very different when you're in a different country and being "strongly encouraged" to meet prospective spouses, as is the case that happened to a friend of mine. Forced marriage isn't always kidnapped, kicking and screaming.

If this suggestion for travel and applying for an ID card came out of the blue, especially from a family that had you on a tracker app "for your own safety", this is absolutely a red flag. And I don't believe your parents have your best interests at heart. Run.

I’m British Pakistani and love to go back to see relatives. It’s a beautiful country and most of the people are lovely.

Re NICOP - this is a cost effective must for people who regularly travel to Pakistan, as it costs the same as 1 x visa, but gives you unlimited visa free travel for 10 years. It makes zero difference to your status as a British citizen, the airport staff will check BOTH your NICOP and British passport, and the British High Commission will always assist you, having a NICOP has nothing to do with it.

Re whether you actually should go to Pakistan - in your situation, I wouldn’t go at this time. I think you should stay in the UK and concentrate on your education/career.

Please stay here

I wouldn't go but that's because you don't sound very connected to your pakistani heritage. The culture is closely bound to religion which clearly you don't follow if you are having a relationship with a woman. I don't mean it to come across as judgy but you also sound a lot younger that your years also. Don't go with them. If you are interested in learning more about the country , read about it. Maybe connect more to the people of pakistani heritage in the UK and see how you get on. Consider visiting as a tourist when you are older.

As Magma32 says, there are all kinds of ways you can be coerced, persuaded, gradually talked into a marriage you don't want. Pressured, made to feel guilty, not want to let anyone down or disappoint them.....all framed as "You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, that's not our way, but he /his parents will be so disappointed." All of these have the same end result of finding yourself in a marriage you didn't want, with a baby, unable to easily leave, with all your options closed down and the doors shut.

You have had a relationship with a girl, you may be gay, that will not go away no matter how hard you try to suppress it (believe me, I know.....).

Please don't go, you will be in another culture, in a foreign country, with many more traditional family members and even your dad / grandparents could feel more peer group pressure to do things more traditionally once they are over there. I am sure it would be a lovely place to visit and see your other relatives but not under these circumstances and while you are still young and being partially controlled by your family.

If your family put a tracker on you again, you can contact the police for advice.

With every update more alarm bells are ringing. I would stay here.

Can we all remember that arranged marriages are a very different thing than forced marriages, and it's quite racist and offensive to make automatic assumptions about an entire nation/culture.
OP needs to risk assess her own situation, of course, but the conclusions being jumped to so easily need to be watched....

Agreed @CallTheMobWife

Do not do it!

I live in Pakistan now and I HATE it. It is a TERRIBLE place.

1. Women are treated like second class citizens here, and unfortunately many female relatives are complicit in arranging marriages and forcing marriages. Do NOT trust your family on this one. You very well could be forced to marry.
2. Don’t marry your family member. I say this as someone living in Pakistan. Marrying within the family keeps women trapped because they never really grow up, but spend their whole lives like little girls doing what the family authorities say. Plus, there are medical issues that happen much more frequently in families where cousin/relative marriage occurs over multiple generations. We are supposed to pretend this isn’t true, so I’ll stop there.
3. If the first two reasons don’t make you pause, consider that Pakistan is FILTHY. There is rubbish everywhere and broken, dysfunctional sewers. You can’t drink the tap water because it is contaminated with fecal matter and other filth. And you are bathing in that water too. The water actually has a stink to it sometimes.
4. The air in Islamabad, Lahore, and Karachi is also filthy. If you follow monitoring systems, you can see it is never healthy. I never feel as if I can get a breath of fresh air because there is always a slight acrid smell and sometimes just a stink of the rubbish that lies rotting everywhere.
5. And again, as a woman, you would be a second class citizen here. There is no real protection for you, even though the laws may be in the books.
6. I live in one of the most expensive parts of a major city in Pakistan, and my family here who never lived abroad can’t see any of the above. But if you are coming from the UK, you will never be happy here.

But their is a grey line between arranged and coerced. It sounds like OP already has more than a hint that relatives in Pakistan are keen for her to be married to someone out there. Coupled with parents who I detect are worried about her lifestyle choices of her same sex relationship here and it would be easy for all to end up in a situation they didn't originally envisage once out there.

OP don't go.

I agree - and yes arranged and coerced / forced are very different things.

Arranged marriages are between people who know that this is what they want, are not doubting their sexuality, and can make a free choice to enter into it.

I am from a religion that has a lot of semi-arranged marriages that an outsider may find un-western, but they can work exceptionally well. I am not against arranged marriages, I am against someone who sounds young and undecided about her sexuality potentially finding herself under pressure and in a position where she doesn't have the confidence or familiar surroundings to stand strong.

There is a fine line between making assumptions, and being so afraid to make assumptions that people don't speak up where they have concerns.

The last line in the OPs first post referred to wanting the protection of a British passport 'if she needed to be brought back to the UK'. That alone sets some alarm bells ringing.

At least if the OP does decide to go she has had some good advice here to take on board if relevant and discard if it is not relevant.

I disagree and would suggest that you might not be familiar with arranged marriages in Pakistan. An ‘arranged’ marriage is actually a forced marriage when the woman has been raised to view herself as a second class citizen, when she has been deprived of the means to support herself, and when she is young and has never lived away from the family home, and is being pressured to marry with no possibility or ideas of any other path. I’m Pakistani and living in Pakistan.

I think you’ll find an arranged marriage can be forced or not forced. I had an arranged marriage and I was not being asked to go to a the old country randomly. I met the guy first on neutral ground and could say yes or no after speaking to him over a period of time. An arranged marriage that uses coercion and pressure is also a force’s marriage, look up the law. Much of her meeting these guys could be done remotely so she’s not in a land where many previous cases have shown us that it’s always a bit dodgy to start marriage talks by going over to the country first. If you look at U.K. laws around forced marriage, if she was a school girl with the same story I’d have to refer this to safeguarding as a matter of urgency. Everything OP has written has red flags all over it and you can be politically correct about it if you want but op has posted on here for a reason so I will advise accordingly. I’ve had many lovely holidays in Pakistan without marriage being on the cards, but doesn’t seem to be the case with OP read her posts, she’s even wondering why her mother has suddenly changed her tune. Op is an ideal candidate to be shipped over for marriage as her parents already have control issues.

OP, my guess is that your parents were more disturbed by your same sex relationship than they let on, and now they are going to try to get you to Pakistan and married to a relative or family friend to ‘fix the gay’.

If you come here to Pakistan and get in trouble, you can message me. I won’t be able to help you and neither will anyone else, but I will be here to listen.

OP: listen to the posters here and don’t go

There will be plenty of time to see Pakistan when you are older

If you need help to move away from your family, there is support available (I am Asian & have seen a lot of young women get through v tricky situations)

In your situation I would already be planning to distance self from family. Can you start by getting a second phone so they cannot track you all the time? And move out as soon as you can.

This charity helps those facing forced marriages, maybe they are worth contacting

karmanirvana.org.uk

Do you have your passport in your own possession? If so, I would either lock it at work, give to a trusted friend who is outside the family or just destroy it (you can always apply for another one later): this is to avoid anyone arranging a last minute trip that you don’t want to go on

I may sound alarmist but I have known families who just take their daughters and spring a wedding in then there: it is v hard to refuse when faced with that kind of pressure

All the alarm bells are ringing so get some support now

What do you think may have caused your mum to change her approach in the meantime?

OP is not living in Pakistan for a start and I hope you know Pakistan is a large country with different levels of education, cultural ideas etc. someone from rural village with zero education will have a different idea and upbringing to an educated city dweller in Lahore. Yes women in Pakistan earn and are independent. Considering you live in Pakistan you’re not aware of the culture outside your bubble it seems. Ofcourse not saying forced marriages don’t happen to the elite and educated but there is a whole different culture in Pakistan compared to the one you are talking about. Maybe travel abit more. However from what op describes it doesn’t sound like her family are liberal and just getting her introduced to potential suitors. Why would they want to go to Pakistan for marriage when she is brought up here? It makes sense if you’re already in the same culture so are being match with people of similar background but clearly isn’t the case here. Sounds very odd considering the back story she has given. But no I wouldn’t say all forced marriages are forced even in Pakistan.

Unless there’s a reason you want to go, don’t go. If you are going just go on your British passport. You can consider the benefits of the ID card for future trips once you’ve decided youd use it. Right now, what’s the point.

Like @BEAM123 I read this as your dad having been pro arranging/coercing a marriage for you, & your mum anti, until recently and something has changed her mind

Which grandmother? On dad’s side? To me it reads very much like they have plans for you so I would be planning to move out unless you are happy to marry a person of their choice

Quite obviously, all forced marriages are "arranged", as in you hardly pick your own groom and choose to get marry them and then are forced to marry.

But arranged marriages are not forced marriages, is the point. Entirely different thing

Part of me is wondering this too. She’s moved out of home, and her mother has used a tracker on her. She’s been with a woman and they seem to be all ok about this but want her to marry, I assume a man. it seems they are playing the long game here without scaring her off.

I am part of the ‘elite’ you reference, and this is my experience here. I am an ‘educated city dweller’ as well.

No, OP is not living in Pakistan and that is why I am warning her. Her parents want to bring her to Pakistan, and I think she needs to know what could happen.

I assure you I am quite well traveled and have lived in multiple countries. Your argument here hinges on some assumptions about my background and travel history and life here in Pakistan, and those are all invalid. Sorry.

I posted some uncomfortable truths and I think it is frankly irresponsible to sugarcoat or deny reality in this situation. It is essential that OP understands the truth of what could happen to her.

So you are really Pakistani and don’t see any danger of forced marriage in OP’s situation? Really? I don’t believe it.

In your own post you said an arranged marriage is different to a forced marriage, obvious to me but didn’t seem obvious from your post 🙄