To this this is NOT the worst time ever to bring a child into the world

[Celebrityskint]

Quite often I see posts going on about today’s world being a terrible world to bring children into... but honestly... in the UK... we’re probably having a very good life compared to most people in most of history.... it’s not a terrible time to bring children into the world

@drunkinthebackofthecar yes and it’s a perfect example of why the world is better now than ever, industrial Illness and accidents are way more rare especially the one DP’s father died of and the support for sufferers and families massively improved

within 20 mins of where I live, you can buy a house for 40k at auction and do it up relatively cheaply, so that’s what I mean when I say that Buying a house doesn’t have to be the massive thing people on here make it out to be - people acting like you need to get a London postcode and have 100k left over for Private school before you try for a child and anything else is irresponsible. That’s not real life. Amongst my friends, inheritance or not, in our town most of us had our first homes in our 20s. Those who have chosen to
move to more Expensive areas maybe not but that’s a choice

We've been reproducing since we first started walking upright and discovered if we bang some rocks together they can make fire.

Your ancestors endured plagues, lived as serfs, peasants, or in some cases slaves for generations. They lived through wars, extreme weather events, famine. They brought children into those environments, some of those children managed to grow up, and they had children of their own.

It was ever thus, and will always be.

Climate change is a scary prospect for sure. Nuclear War? That didn't stop our parents or grandparents when the threat of the cold War loomed over them. Financial crisis? We were having kids when the majority of us didn't own homes and lived on the masters land.

There will be a societal shift coming, there has to be as our current course is unsustainable. Life may not be as "good" for our kids as it has been for us when we were kids, but it will still be better than 99% of human history, and if they are in the UK it will still be better than probably 80% of the rest of the world even today.

By all means don't have kids if you don't want them, but why fearmonger towards those that do?. I have a young child and we'll have another if we can. Part of my job is to prepare them for the world as it is, and for what it may become, and to put them in the strongest position to survive and do well in whatever future comes to us.

If we're going to go out in a flash of light it won't really matter anyway, as we'll barely have time to register it.

But we've never had it so good then gradually have it taken away before.

What do you think that you’ve had taken away?

I don’t think that any of my ancestors has had a better life than I have now or that my children will have.

@PrincessButtercupToo - I don't know how old you are. Both my parents were war babies. Their standard of living only improved. I came along in the 60's and I've seen many changes. By the 80's things were great and continued to be until more recently. Sure, the 'greatness' slowed down but the hope was there. I don't feel any hope now. And yes I agree, my great grandmother didn't have a brilliant life but we're talking about NOW.

Mum of 2 young children here. I too get disheartened by people suggesting that maybe I shouldn't have had my babies due to the nature of the world today. But what's wrong with hoping that their generation might actually help to make it better? We are all aware of what's wrong so let's prepare & teach our children to make the world better.
My children are currently blissfully enjoying their childhood and making memories (as I did) and I will do everything I can to protect that. I have no regrets for having them and can't imagine my life without them. That may be selfish to some but my decision to have them means that their needs will always become mine.

I feel the same way… It’s a shame, it really is, I feel like the human race should be able to do better… There’s literally not even enough dental care for children (lack of nhs dentists)…

Theres so many issues with the world now and I think the decision to reproduce needs to be:

‘what’s life going to be like for my child as an adult, are they going to live a good life? Be able to earn a living wage? Will they be in pain from not being able to afford dental care? Will they be cold as they can’t afford to heat their home? Will they be able to afford a family of their own? What’s the state of the planet going to be for them? Will their life be miserable?

But most people just think ‘I want a baby’

I’m childfree and have thought long and hard about my decision. I don’t judge others for making a different decision, but I do wonder how many people actually think of what life is going to be like for their child when they reach adulthood. Babies don’t stay babies forever… And life is already so hard… We don’t consent to exist

These children turn into teenagers. Then it’s when you realise how shit it is and question the morality of having children-the environment, masses of student debt, horrific exam pressure, no chance of owning own home, incredibly hard to move out, dwindling NHS, zero dentistry, dwindling orthodontics, very little mental health support, far more limitations due to Brexit….

I agree. People who say this have no perspective and an astoundingly poor knowledge of history.

As for worst times in history to have a child?

Well, here's some for starters that are massively worse than today:

1. As a Native American in 16th century Mexico after the introduction of smallpox

2. As a Ukrainian in the 1920s... with famine and then war, only about 20% of your sons would still be alive in the early 20s in 1945.

3. As a Cambodian in mid-70s as the Khmer Rouge came to power;

And there are literally countless others examples against which we are living in paradise by comparison.

This is nothing new - it has been said in every generation. People still have kids. There will always be some sort of crisis affecting humanity.

Hmmm... "dwindling orthodontics" and "horrific exam stress".... OMG, if only I could have gone back to medieval times and had my children then!

I don't think that most people feel this way. Even on MN, where there is a large contingent of future fearing people, there is still a lot of people TTC, just giving birth, considering another child etc.

And honestly, if you look at the world instead of just the UK or just MN, most people are going about their lives, unaffected by fear of climate change , nuclear war etc.

It's a silly, short-sighted and Western-centric POV
Should no one in third world countries have children?
The 'state of the world' is never going to be perfect.
I grew up with 9/11, anthrax and the War on Terror
My grandparents grew up in wartime as first generation immigrants whose parents had to teach themselves English and marry friends/relatives to get into the country.

Wow this thread is crazy.

I think this is a mindset thing. Nowadays people are bombarded with news/media and live in a place of fear most of their lives.

Really my ultimate stance on this is if I have children can I keep them safe? If I lived in a war zone I may have held off etc. The threat of nuclear oblivion is about as much of a worry to me as a cataclysmic natural disaster would have been to my ancestors.

Things like orthodontics, exam stress, energy prices are like clouds drifting across the skies of time. Modern ‘stressors’ in a modern world. People have always had children in challenging circumstances (and most of history has been a lot more physically challenging than now). There may be concerns about healthcare access, climate change etc but my ancestors would have had equivalent worries just different context.

I think we have overcomplicated life and childbearing. There is so much innate joy in it.
We have got used to warn houses, convenience, aiming for capitalist success (uni etc), but that’s not really what life’s about is it?
I would choose to know my children in any world. They are what give my life have meaning - not external factors.

Of course it's not but people do love to catastrophise especially those that would have no intention of ever being a parent and have some weird child free agenda to push

Well with the ageing population issue they will be taxed to shit!

It's a silly, short-sighted and Western-centric POV
Should no one in third world countries have children

agree

Things have taken a downturn for us in the affluent, sheltered West recently. We might have to put on an extra jumper and woolly socks this winter - or forego a few takeaways - it's outrageous.

Yes, who a couple of years ago could have imagined a full-scale war, possibly with the threat of nuclear strikes in Europe? Ukraine is living through a nightmare. And of course elsewhere in the world climate change is causing huge problems for less affluent people.

But people who say it's the worst time...don't know their history. From a European point of view I think the worst time in recent history would have been to give birth to a child in 1900 - just in time for them to go through (or die in) one, and possibly 2 world wars.

Because we don’t know what the world will look like in 70 years. So what you’re saying, really, is “someone in 1943 had more reasons to think the outlook was great than someone in 2022”. And given what was going on in 1943 that sounds a bit bonkers.

If you live in the UK today, you are sheltered from about 90% of the bad things that happened to our ancestors, and from many bad things that happen to most people in the world today, and indeed from many bad things that will happen in the future (climate change will disproportionately hit countries with less resource to mitigate against it.

If you think that this situation here is an unjustifiably bad time to be having children, you have to think that most people in poorer countries should definitely all stop having children, right now today. Nobody seems as willing to stand by that, but it’s a pretty logical extension.

The world has always been full of bad things. Deciding to deal with this knowledge by thinking it’s immoral for people to have children and humanity should just wipe itself out isn’t new - but there’s a reason most people in the world have never embraced that approach beyond some fairly short-lived cults.

It’s not a gritty realistic evaluation of how hard it is to live in a rich country in 2022, it’s a philosophical position about what life is for and what a good life looks like, and it’s a pretty empty one.

I totally agree with this. I’ve got a one year old and pregnant with my second. To say this thread has just sent my brain into overdrive would be an understatement! If we all had the mentality of waiting until things blew over, we would never do anything. Yes it’s sad that the world has come to this but I think we have to try and see the joy facing us at this moment. We’re breathing, we have water available to drink and we get to see our babies grow into little people ❤️

These type of threads are always started and encouraged by people who had kids a while ago and they're so bloody annoying.

In lockdown, when I happened to already fall pregnant after years of believing I couldn't have children, ther were loads of arsehole threads by parents who had older children saying how they would NEVER have had babies in a pandemic and how it's selfish for anyone to have a baby nowadays.

Everyone had children "but that's irrelevant", load of bullshit really.

Mind your own bloody business.

Are people really saying if they'd known about climate change 10/20 years ago they wouldn't have had their children? People did know about it back then. The difference was it wasn't shoved down everyone's throats on social media/ constant news etc. I think the reason people are saying they wouldn't had kids now is because they're older, less idealistic and more aware of their/everyone's mortality. I don't have kids (not through choice), but in the last 10 years I've changed in my opinion of lots of things due to age/experience.

I don't understand this mentally these days of how everyone else has/ had everything better. I see it everywhere. I mean what about people who had kids in between the first and second world war. Were they selfish for not predicting another one could happen? Or wise to have kids just after one had finished so it was unlikely to happen again. But it did. Things got worse again. The issue is NO ONE can predict the future. 5 years ago no one could have predicted covid/Ukraine etc. So people are saying those people aren't selfish who had kids in say 2015? But if you have them now you are? Despite no one knowing what the world will actually look like in 20 years. One of the children born now could be the genius who comes up with ways to fix climate change long term improving everyone else's lives.

Everyone needs to stop telling young people that their world and future is fucked. It will create a generation who have no hope and don't want to work to try and improve things. And if that happens then it'll become a self fulfilling prophecy as there won't be anyone to try and improve things. Someone above said it wasn't good to have kids as (one reason) was lack of dentists. What child born now will want to be a dentist if they're told their life will be shit regardless and they'll probably die young of radiation sickness/climate change/ freezing etc. So the cycle of things getting worse will continue.

These type of threads are always started and encouraged by people who had kids a while ago

Because there’s a mismatch between what they actually value and what they think they value, and they can’t really explain it or even accept it, so they’re left trying to claim that the only time in human history it’s been objectively good to have babies was if you lived in Guildford between 2006 and 2011.

I worry on a daily basis about the impacts that climate change will have on my kids future - DD5 and DS8. When I was ttc 9 years ago I don't think the impacts of climate change on our current existence had really hit home to the point they have now. If I knew then what I know now, I don't think if I'd have chosen to have kids.

I think it's harder to bring up children now than 20 years ago for a variety of reasons. Cost of living, The influence of internet/social media on both parents and children, NHS crisis leading to less support from health visitors etc., the impact of Covid lockdowns.
I don't think it's wrong or selfish to want children though.
I was pregnant with ds1 during 9/11 and I remember wondering what kind of world I was bringing him into and worrying about it. I think every generation has their own worries about child-rearing that are unique to that generation but I'd much rather have a baby now than in the three day working week 70s or the days of crazy interest rates in the 80s.
Disclaimer: I'd rather not have a baby at all now, on the wrong side of 45 but if I was young enough and just starting out, I wouldn't let the current state of the world put me off.