To this this is NOT the worst time ever to bring a child into the world

[Celebrityskint]

Quite often I see posts going on about today’s world being a terrible world to bring children into... but honestly... in the UK... we’re probably having a very good life compared to most people in most of history.... it’s not a terrible time to bring children into the world

I've heard people spouting this crap for decades, literally. It's often just "oh - they'll invent some technology to sort the problem out, I'm not worried" - no more thought out than that. Just an excuse to do nothing and carry on as if the problem didn't exist.

Some people are welcoming the imminent return of Jesus Christ at the moment, presumably due to the nuclear threat. I've seen them advertising online prayer sessions on our local Facebook group. Might just as well believe in that.

If you genuinely believe that we are, in your words, living in 'an End of Times scenario' then you may as well - one apocalyptic cult is much like the other. And they probably do good tea and biscuits.

I'm sure that being unrealistically optimistic about the future is more fun. But encouraging other people to have children is immoral, as things stand.

No, it isn’t.

Out of interest, what evidence would make you reconsider your conclusion that we’re living in the End of Times? If we get to twenty years in the future and for us in rich countries life is maybe a bit worse but not substantially so, would it start being ok for people to have kids then? Or would you just say “ah well, the end was not quite nigh then but it definitely is now”?

Lots of solidarity and best wishes for you. I conceived much-wanted DC2 during the first lockdown and I remember how I felt reading mumsnet threads about how selfish and awful people like me were. I'm now just as glad for him every day as I am for his older brother (who was conceived in the good times, so I guess is more morally acceptable). I don't know what their lives will bring; may they be as happy as their mother, conceived post-chernobyl, or their father, born during the biggest recession since the second world war, or their grandfather, conceived in that world war, or their great grandmother, born into conditions of grinding poverty that impacted on her health for life.

Interestingly, when I was 30 I knew lots of people who weren't going to have children because of climate change. Now we're in our late 30s and an awful lot of them have babies...

Talk is cheap, innit? Easy to say 'Oh I wouldn't have kids with all I know now' when it's nothing you ever have to prove or back up in any way. And for most people it just won't be true.

My kids bring me endless joy and have a wonderful childhood. Who knows what the world will bring as adults? But we are giving them the best start possible and despite all that's wrong in the world, there is so much that is right too, and I'm glad they will experience the good as well as the bad and maybe be part of the solution to the problems. It would take a very bad world indeed for most people to wish they hadn't been born.

And I do genuinely feel a bit sorry for people who are trotting out the 'no kids cos of climate change' spiel as I think they are missing out on one of life's greatest joys and in contributing adults of the future who can help to change our world. But I think a lot of people say that in their 20s, and then get to 30 and it all changes. I was vocal in my 20s about never having kids yet here I am with two and happy as a pig in muck

I have young adult DCs and have for years made it clear to them that I think that their having children would be the wrong decision, because of climate change. It is their decision, but much as I love young children, I would hate to have grandchildren

And I think this is freaking awful, sorry! Your poor kids.

The end is nigh people would be funny if they weren’t so incredibly boring. Such weird, sad people, sucking the joy out of life. Can’t imagine how utterly self absorbed you would have to be to tell other people not to have children and pretend it’s because you care. Seriously unpleasant and unhealthy attitude.

Yeah, that’s BS! I have a great grandparent called up for WW1 - died, and his brother. I have a grandfather called up for WW2, survived, 2 siblings did not. Before that, family who starved to death or immigrated in the Great Famine.
and since WW2 - real nuclear threat, I grew up in the Troubles, and was directly affected - been in bombs, lost family members.
DP grew up in a conflict in another country.
My family lost our house In The first recession in the 80s, I grew up in poverty.
And through all that, we were generally a happy family… as was DPs.
and if you look further back at poverty, lifestyle, wars conflicts and on and on - depending on where you live we still have never been so lucky.

If you wanted to compare it to bringing a child up say during the war or in Victorian Britain it’s probably not that bad, sadly though this world we live in right now is fucked beyond belief. I would not consider bringing a baby into this now. Climate change alone is enough to make you pause.

Weirdly I wouldn't want to see my grandchildren suffer, or just know that they will suffer later in life. Bringing children into a tough world is one thing. But bringing them into a world without hope, because of the behaviour of their own parents and grandparents, is another. And doing that very deliberately. How is that not immoral? Putting your own wish for a baby first, knowing how bad things are going to be?

But no-one’s doing just nothing and carrying on. The U.K. has halved its carbon emissions per person over the last decade and is continuing to push on strongly towards net zero. We are now well below China in person-capita emissions, and despite the uninformed sniping that this fact tends to prompt, only 15% of China’s emissions are driven by their export market.

I think people not wanting to have children because of the state of the world oftentimes has more to do with their own feelings than the interests of the hypothetical child. If a nuclear bomb goes off over my city tomorrow I'd still prefer to have experienced the world for 30-something years first than never to have been born at all, although I'd probably wish I'd been born 50 years earlier so I could have had a longer life. If I was born today and ended up facing some kind of climate apocalypse in 30 years' time I'd no doubt feel the same.

However... right now I'm somewhat worried about the future, but in a manageable way. If I had a young child, though, I think my anxiety would be absolutely through the roof. Reading about nuclear war and conventional war and extreme weather events and all-powerful AI robots taking over the world does make me glad I don't want children (for unrelated reasons), but not because I'm being selfless - if anything because it allows me to abdicate responsibility for the future to some degree. I only have to worry about getting through my own life OK and then I'm done, not about what the world will be like in 150 years' time and how it will impact countless generations of descendants. Other people not feeling differently to me is a good thing, I don't want the human race to die out!

I'm one of those who wouldn't have children now. I'm not telling anyone how to live their lives, and I'm not joy sucking, but in the same way I vote a certain way based on my opinion and life experience, I just wouldn't bring children into the world now. It's an easily justifiable position with many valid arguments. (And indeed the opposite is true- there are many arguments for having children it's just a matter of where you fall in your opinion of the two sides)

If people don't have such courage in their conviction for any choice that they feel bitter and upset that someone disagrees with that choice- there is a problem. I would not have children in this current world- if you WOULD and are, then you should have the confidence in your choice not to give a fuck what I would do in the same circumstance.

My children are grown up and I seriously don’t give a fuck what other people do in regards to having children, what I can’t stand hearing is people who already have children moaning onto people who are yet to have children about how selfish they are. People like gonetoground telling her own children not to have children. Yuck.

Peace where?

And when was there no disease?

OK fair point.

To clarify then: I don't believe, at this particular moment, that a totally devastating outcome to climate change is absolutely 100% certain and irreversible. There are several possible futures.

It's just that which of those futures occurs is not a question of rolling a dice, or waiting for God to decide. It's very much down to what humans do. As things currently stand, what humans are doing makes a catastrophic outcome overwhelmingly likely, and there doesn't appear to be sufficient awareness or acceptance of the scale and urgency of change necessary to alter that.

I suppose one could conceivably have children in a state of faith, or maybe hope, that despite all the evidence to the contrary the human race will dramatically and decisively change course "just in time". I personally wouldn't consider the odds of that happening worth the far more likely outcome of bringing a child into a future of catastophic ecological and societal breakdown.

Oh give over 🙄

The idea that we are living in end-times is ridiculous. None of the climate projections suggest this, and given how much safer the planet is than in prior centuries there’s no serious non-climate issue on the horizon either.

Yes, it makes sense to think about the future, but doing so doesn’t suggest that an apocalypse is on the way.

The predictions for the climate in the U.K. don’t put us outside climates that exist today and un which people live perfectly nice lives. Yes, buying on a flood plain in Bangladesh is a bad idea, but there is nothing that looks dangerous or unsurvivable for families living somewhere like Oxford, Hexham, or Hampstead.

Wow, your posts are shocking. You really shouldn't, in my opinion, be indoctrinating your children into your very bleak world view. It is a personal decision to have children, not one that should be influenced by a parent.

I was born in the 80s in Belfast at the height of the troubles. When I was growing up I had friends who's fathers had been murdered in totally random sectarian killings. You'd turn on the news every morning and someone else had been murdered. My mother worked in the city centre and there was always bomb scares (and bombs going off). I was in countless bomb scares myself. My friend was shot dead randomly because of his religion. When I was a teenager my sister and close family friend worked at Holy Cross school at the time of the dispute, which was a frightening time, especially as I was older then.

But you know what? I still had a happy childhood and a nice life. It wasn't always easy but I don't think I've had a lot more struggles than anyone else. People adapt and get on with life even in times of war
Should the people in the North stopped pro creating because of the troubles? Hardly.

"....things seem to worsen for every generation..." WTAF?!? I don't think I've ever seen anything on MN which is more ridiculously untrue and more detached from reality than this.... To think that people today live in worse conditions than a typical Victorian or Medieval person lived in is beyond absurdity and ignorance.

I said something much the same early in the thread. Honestly, I just don't understand this ignorance of how people used to live.

@GonetoGround14

Bringing children into a tough world is one thing. But bringing them into a world without hope,...

A "world without hope."?! You doom laden pessimism and despair is soul-destroying and warped. It also must be thoroughly screwing with your mental health. Humanity is nothing if not adaptable. If things change, as they have done throughout history, we'll adapt. And with the scientific and technological advancement of the past century, we are better placed to adapt than ever.

Take Bangladesh. In 1970 there was a catastrophic cyclone which killed c. 500,000 people - one of the worst natural disasters in history. In 1991 there was a further deadly cyclone killing 125,000 people. Since then technological advances and an increase in economic prosperity (relative to the past) has enabled Bangladesh to develop thousands of storm shelters and provide effective early warning systems. The result: despite climate change into the 21st century, no storm has caused anything like that level of death. For example, the 2007 cyclone, which was as strong as those in 1970 and 1991 killed "just" 3,000-10,000 after extensive warning and preparations.