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AIBU?

To ask what you think about ‘work for dole’ idea?

518 replies

WakeUpAndBe · 04/10/2022 10:24

Is it reasonable or unreasonable?

Pros: on the surface it sounds reasonable. Means the public won’t view it as “free money” if people are working 30 hours a week for a lot less than the national living wage.

Cons: risks of exploitation and returning to Charles Dickens’ style workhouses for the poor.

Chris Philp said UC claimants should be forced to ‘work for dole’

In his paper, Philp suggested those claiming universal credit should, after a certain time, have to work for their benefits if they were employed for less than 30 hours a week. He suggested those claiming benefits for a disability should be given work that they were physically able to do.
^^
“Philp said they could be asked to complete community work such as cleaning graffiti or clearing parks, charity work, supervised job searching or recognised training to top up their hours to 30 a week. He said a referral to the “work for the dole” scheme would be triggered between three months and two years after first claiming depending on previous national insurance contributions.
^^
“If anyone is not compliant with work for the dole activity requirements, they should automatically have all their universal credit payments suspended as long as the person is not working for the dole,” he wrote at the time. “Although the complete suspension of universal credit benefit payments may seem an extreme sanction, the evidence from the US suggests that this is required to make the scheme fully effective.”

Number crunching

The National Living Wage is currently £9.50 x 30 hours x 4 weeks = £1,140 for 4 weeks

According to the website, monthly UC is £265.31 for single and under 25,
£334.91 for single over 25,
£416.45 for couples under 25
and
£525.72 for couples over 25.

OP posts:
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Am I being unreasonable?

576 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
72%
You are NOT being unreasonable
28%
MsPincher · 04/10/2022 10:43

I think one of the most notable things last time was that large number of people stopped claiming when asked to work. This indicated they were working cash in hand.

I wouldn’t object to some suitable work for people not working and assessed as able to work. Being out of work long term is not good for people.

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TiredButAlive · 04/10/2022 10:44

If there's work needing to be done here's a wild idea .... call it a "job" and pay people a fair wage to do it!!!!

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WakeUpAndBe · 04/10/2022 10:44

OneTC · 04/10/2022 10:33

It's one of those things designed to appeal to people that are hard of thinking. A moment's thought and you're like oh yeah of course, but scams/soundbites like this are for idiots

sTrOnG and StAbLe

Exactly why discussion is important.

OP posts:
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cawfeee · 04/10/2022 10:46

Pensioners are the largest expense, get them lazy bastards out cleaning graffiti, litter picking for their money.
My dads still working in his 70s, why should his peers not have to do the same.
Wonder why that ones not been suggested.

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MrsSkylerWhite · 04/10/2022 10:48

AirFryerNinja · Today 10:40
We've been doing this in my home country for years.
People on long term unemployment benefits work for 1 euro per hour on top of their benefits.
If you don't participate then you don't get your benefits“

I’m very pleased not to live in your home country. I don’t receive any benefits but would be appalled to
see my countrymen/women exploited by unscrupulous employers, fully sanctioned by the state.

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FarmerRefuted · 04/10/2022 10:48

MrsSkylerWhite · 04/10/2022 10:35

FrankTheThunderbird · Today 10:27
If there's 30 hours of work to do then pay someone to do it. As in a real wage“

this. If people are doing a real job, they get the going rate.
how long before unscrupulous employers start laying people off and adopting effectively slave labour?

I think one of the pound shops (Pound world?) and Tesco, possibly s couple of other companies too, did this during the days of Workfare. They laid a load of paid staff off and then got the the same staff back for free via Workfare. There were also lots of reports of Workfare staff being treated like shit by companies - not allowed proper breaks, banned from using facilities for "real staff" such as staff rooms and toilets (think it was the pound shop again who were sending Workfare staff to public toilets around the corner because shop toilets were "staff only"), being given all of the shit hours and shit tasks, nd basically being treated like lower class citizens.

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Awwlookatmybabyspider · 04/10/2022 10:48

I think for a start we should all be worried about our own livelihoods if this gets passed. After all why should employers pay us a wage when they can get some one to do it for free. Employers already get away with being allowed to pay their employees a pittance what more do they want/need. There again you couldn't blame people for taking advantage of something that is there to be taken advantage of.
I Also do have to ask why cant these jobs be created as real NLW jobs then instead of free labour

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CredibilityProblem · 04/10/2022 10:49

It's been tried several times, it quietly died a death each time because of the problems that become obvious once you think about it for a bit. Most people on UC are employed, disabled or caring for young children. The relatively few actual unemployed are kept pretty busy proving that they're applying for jobs and running back and forward to job centre appointments. It's a system which is already deliberately designed so that a life on job seekers allowance (or the UC equivalent) is more trouble than it's worth if you're just looking for an easy life (also designed to stop you being able to hold down a full-time cash-in-hand job).

On top of all the other obvious problems, most of the natural litter picking and graffiti removal schemes are currently being done by criminals doing community service. Even the most hardcore Tory can surely see the problem with getting the unemployed to do exactly the same work that convicted criminals are made to do as a punishment?

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Croque · 04/10/2022 10:49

Given that Liz was shagging her boss during working hours for several years, I can only laugh.

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MarshaBradyo · 04/10/2022 10:49

romdowa · 04/10/2022 10:42

We had this in Ireland and it failed spectacularly. Businesses were using the scheme to full a vacancy for free, job seekers were promised the scheme would led to training and maybe a job. What happened was once your time on the scheme was over, you were let go and the next person was drafted in. No training was given and people where just exploited

I’d be wary of this

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SleepingStandingUp · 04/10/2022 10:49

AirFryerNinja · 04/10/2022 10:43

@SleepingStandingUp The children are usually at school.

So no holidays there? 6 at summer, 2 at Christmas, 2 at Easter plus another 3 between those here and that's without teachers training days

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TooMuchToDoTooLittleInclination · 04/10/2022 10:50

MsPincher · 04/10/2022 10:43

I think one of the most notable things last time was that large number of people stopped claiming when asked to work. This indicated they were working cash in hand.

I wouldn’t object to some suitable work for people not working and assessed as able to work. Being out of work long term is not good for people.

Or there were other things that made not claiming make more sense (childcare costing as much as they got from
job seekers).

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QuestionableMouse · 04/10/2022 10:51

It's pretty damn close to slavery which is horrifying. I get UC. So far this month I've had two phone interviews and have to go to the job centre for a capability interview. All for £300 a month, and all because I've had to cut my hours at work due to Long Covid which I'm struggling to get help for.

My sister gets UC too, because she has two kids and between school drop off (8:30) nursery drop off (11:45) school pick up (2:35) and nursery pick up (3:20) it's pretty much impossible for her to find a job. She's a single parent so can't work on an evening/night. She's looking at weekend work but the hours tend to be long and the pay low.

This country is an absolute disgrace!

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JubileeTrifle · 04/10/2022 10:51

I remember being told I wasn’t allowed to volunteer (for work experience) because it would interfere with me looking for a job.

I used to work for a council where I spend years undoing work that had been done by ‘work creating schemes’ which were badly done by inexperienced people.

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girlfriend44 · 04/10/2022 10:51

FarmerRefuted · 04/10/2022 10:48

I think one of the pound shops (Pound world?) and Tesco, possibly s couple of other companies too, did this during the days of Workfare. They laid a load of paid staff off and then got the the same staff back for free via Workfare. There were also lots of reports of Workfare staff being treated like shit by companies - not allowed proper breaks, banned from using facilities for "real staff" such as staff rooms and toilets (think it was the pound shop again who were sending Workfare staff to public toilets around the corner because shop toilets were "staff only"), being given all of the shit hours and shit tasks, nd basically being treated like lower class citizens.

Yes b and m bargains was another and charity shops. There used to be an organisation called Boycott Workfare they held a list of companies and charities exploiting people.

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Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 04/10/2022 10:51

If it is 30 hrs work they should be paid for 30 hrs work.

I think it some circumstances it's ok. My brother has MH issues and lives in another country where he is in receipt of disability benefits. There they encourage suitable, unpaid work. It's not a condition to the benefits being paid but highly encouraged. It has been great for him, it's given him a purpose, social interaction. work experience and made him feel useful. In return he benefitted those employing him (he worked on a farm for quite a while, where he looked after animals and helped with landscaping type activities).

I don't know if schemes like that exist here, and if they do how widely used they are. But I think they could probably be beneficial to lots of people, especially if applied on a carrot rather than stick basis.

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WakeUpAndBe · 04/10/2022 10:52

girlfriend44 · 04/10/2022 10:43

Community Service is for people who done crimes.
Being out of work is not a crime. Would you like them to wear a bright jacket with the words I'm unemployed on it too. Silly post.
People aren't being paid to sit at home either. They are receiving a basic allowance to live on while they jobsearch. Woukd you rather they starve?
people are now expected to look for a job 35 hours a week I believe which is a job in itself. They are constantly pressured and have to prove what they are doing so they are hardly sat at home doing nothing.If they do they lose their money.
As also said alot of people claiming benefit are also in work.
Bit of a non starter this thread. Firms should also pay people for work otherwise its exploiting people.

The context is that the Home Office Secretary and previous Attorney General, Suella Braverman, has said she wants to get rid of the human right to protection from torture and inhumane treatment. That’s why she wants out of the ECHR.

OP posts:
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CapMarvel · 04/10/2022 10:52

It is, of course, a fucking stupid idea beloved of those who think anyone and everyone on benefits is a workshy scrounger.

If there is a job that needs doing you pay people a fair wage full fucking stop.

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walkingonsunshinekat · 04/10/2022 10:53

Funny how this proposal is from multi millionaire Chris Philp, the same Philp that came up with the idea of the cut to higher rate income tax.

The whole leadership of the Tory party is in the hands of the Tax Payers Alliance, a far right unelected think tank, that makes people like Meloni or Le Pen look like Corbynites.

He wouldn't work for a few pence an hour, so why should anyone else who finds themselves unemployed?

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AuntSalli · 04/10/2022 10:53

MsPincher · 04/10/2022 10:43

I think one of the most notable things last time was that large number of people stopped claiming when asked to work. This indicated they were working cash in hand.

I wouldn’t object to some suitable work for people not working and assessed as able to work. Being out of work long term is not good for people.

So what exactly do you think you could do for a living that would be cash in hand ?
and reliably provide you with £1000 a month income which is what you would need to not be on benefits.
my deep concern following the case of in Liverpool of that poor little girl that was shot in her own home is the most lucrative cash in hand job I can think of is drug running. My sister works in social services and I’m reliably told that provides about £30 a go, three or four of those a day and you’re laughing providing you don’t need to use the gun you’ve been issued with.

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TooMuchToDoTooLittleInclination · 04/10/2022 10:54

What is the reality if claiming benefits now?

say you're a 26 year old male, no childcare responsibilities, able bodied, no MH issues.

How much would you get & for how long? What expectations are there of job seeking, taking A job, rather than waiting for a CEO job to come up?

I have just realise that I have absolutely no idea.

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Octomore · 04/10/2022 10:54

OneTC · 04/10/2022 10:37

I don't see why not

Because it's a stupid, corrupt and immoral solution to a problem that only exists in the eyes of morons

Well said

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walkingonsunshinekat · 04/10/2022 10:54

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 04/10/2022 10:51

If it is 30 hrs work they should be paid for 30 hrs work.

I think it some circumstances it's ok. My brother has MH issues and lives in another country where he is in receipt of disability benefits. There they encourage suitable, unpaid work. It's not a condition to the benefits being paid but highly encouraged. It has been great for him, it's given him a purpose, social interaction. work experience and made him feel useful. In return he benefitted those employing him (he worked on a farm for quite a while, where he looked after animals and helped with landscaping type activities).

I don't know if schemes like that exist here, and if they do how widely used they are. But I think they could probably be beneficial to lots of people, especially if applied on a carrot rather than stick basis.

Yes schemes for the disabled to find therapy in work used to exist and Cameron shut them down.

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Blueberrywitch · 04/10/2022 10:54

Completely awful idea and a waste of time and resources for the government and people needing income support. Much cheaper and more effective to have a universal basic income rather that all this outdated, stigmatising bullshit.

I say this as someone has been very lucky to have not needed income support yet in my life, but very happy to live in a society that provides a social safety net to all who need it.

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Lilyhatesjaz · 04/10/2022 10:56

A lot of these jobs should be done by people paid proper wages.
Time spent completing job applications with someone who can help them, or time training may be more useful, but this needs to be proper useful training eg gaining an IT certificate not like YTS where trainees were used as cheap labour.
A lot of people work part time due to caring responsibilities not because they don't want full-time work and should not be penalised.
I think tax credits are not always a good thing though as they allow big employers to pay low wages and workers are topped up by the tax payer they should have to pay proper wages.

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