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AIBU?

To ask what you think about ‘work for dole’ idea?

518 replies

WakeUpAndBe · 04/10/2022 10:24

Is it reasonable or unreasonable?

Pros: on the surface it sounds reasonable. Means the public won’t view it as “free money” if people are working 30 hours a week for a lot less than the national living wage.

Cons: risks of exploitation and returning to Charles Dickens’ style workhouses for the poor.

Chris Philp said UC claimants should be forced to ‘work for dole’

In his paper, Philp suggested those claiming universal credit should, after a certain time, have to work for their benefits if they were employed for less than 30 hours a week. He suggested those claiming benefits for a disability should be given work that they were physically able to do.
^^
“Philp said they could be asked to complete community work such as cleaning graffiti or clearing parks, charity work, supervised job searching or recognised training to top up their hours to 30 a week. He said a referral to the “work for the dole” scheme would be triggered between three months and two years after first claiming depending on previous national insurance contributions.
^^
“If anyone is not compliant with work for the dole activity requirements, they should automatically have all their universal credit payments suspended as long as the person is not working for the dole,” he wrote at the time. “Although the complete suspension of universal credit benefit payments may seem an extreme sanction, the evidence from the US suggests that this is required to make the scheme fully effective.”

Number crunching

The National Living Wage is currently £9.50 x 30 hours x 4 weeks = £1,140 for 4 weeks

According to the website, monthly UC is £265.31 for single and under 25,
£334.91 for single over 25,
£416.45 for couples under 25
and
£525.72 for couples over 25.

OP posts:
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Am I being unreasonable?

576 votes. Final results.

POLL
You are being unreasonable
72%
You are NOT being unreasonable
28%
GreyBlossom · 06/10/2022 07:57

Kissingfrogs25 · 06/10/2022 07:51

I am talking about the people that do zero work and have no intention of getting a job, or those doing the absolute bare minimum and exploiting the system. I am certainly NOT talking about those on low pay that work hard, I completely support anyone working.

I don’t feel I share any values whatsoever with someone that takes no responsibility for themselves or their lives. I can’t abide laziness either.

How many of those people exist? How do you decide which ones they are? And if they do what work are you going to make them do and how do you make sure they do it? Managing the whole thing would be hugely expensive.

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celticprincess · 06/10/2022 08:03

Definitely not!!
No such thing as dole now. Jobseekers is either no longer, or phased out. Universal credits is the thing people looking for work claim alongside people who work claiming it as they need the top up from bad wages to survive.
If a job is available the pay someone properly to do that job.
would agency work count? Many qualified teachers graduate without an immediate job and are already paid very poorly to work on supply through an agency. Not all are even eligible to claim UC.
Job applications and job searches take ages. Yes, if people don’t seem to have found a job within a decent time frame they should be expected to take any job - this was expected of me when I was made redundant from a job, am a qualified teacher and was given 3 months to find a teaching specific job or I’d have to take any job. Job centre accepted they’re not equipped to deal with professionals. I took agency work as I’d still earn more than a minimum wage cleaning/waitress type job and it would give me ongoing experience for applying for a teaching job and sometimes my name known in some schools. It would have been extremely hard to get another teaching job if I’d been expected to work full time for jobseekers money in a cleaning/retail job whilst trying to pay childcare for my kids and also write lengthy applications/look round schools etc.

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Gremlinsateit · 06/10/2022 08:04

We have work for the dole in Australia. It’s shameful. If the job is there, it can pay minimum wage.

The task of finding the placements has been outsourced to non-government agencies which scam the system to reap higher placement fees. Participants are referred to placements which don’t match their skills or needs, and are provided with inadequate training and safety gear, leading to injury.

Studies have shown that many sites don’t meet safety standards and that participants’ employment prospects do not increase significantly.

Because of the moral hazard, so to speak, of the placement fees, agencies are motivated to apply the work obligations to people who are exempt, like students who meet the exemption requirements.

Anecdotal reports also suggest that agencies falsely rated participants as having a more severe disability or lower educational achievement than was the case, because they received higher payments for participants who were rated as more difficult to place. Substantial amounts have had to be repaid by agencies after audits.

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FriedasCarLoad · 06/10/2022 08:06

That would be too many hours, considering that their main job should be job applications. And simply counter-productive for those who are genuinely desperate to work.

But for that very small minority who haven't worked in years and don't want to, maybe something along these lines might give them the push they need.

I'm not sure how the process of identifying those people could be made fair though, and how the safeguarding could be good enough.

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R2G · 06/10/2022 08:07

Ooh yes what a good idea, can we make them wear bright orange boiler suits with 'poor but grateful' written on the back too?

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America12 · 06/10/2022 08:13

Would childcare be provided ? If so why can't they provide it now ? People (women) would be back to work in droves if they didn't have unaffordable childcare costs.

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Gremlinsateit · 06/10/2022 08:14

R2G · 06/10/2022 08:07

Ooh yes what a good idea, can we make them wear bright orange boiler suits with 'poor but grateful' written on the back too?

😂

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Lifelessordinary1 · 06/10/2022 08:39

The number of universal credits claimants include 41% already working and the 1/4 million working age people living in care homes and hospital - who are so disabled they cannot be left alone.

It also includes all those who are less disabled living in supported living which means they are so disabled they can manage some aspects of looking after themselves but not others.

It also includes the people who are very long term ill - say going through Chemo - who i personally feel may not be able to work. Jesus wept did i actually have to say that!

It also includes carers of the above people who may be very disabled or ill - and some carers are caring for more than 1 person.

It includes some parents of very young babies who are on a maternity leave type situation.

It also includes the many people who have so many barriers to getting a job, more minor disabilities, lack of transport, childcare, caring for sick or elderly relatives, criminal records - i could go on listing them for hours.

It also includes people who are between jobs - one job has finished, and they are going through the process of getting another one.

I am sure i can think of more categories of people on Universal Credit - I love the comment about local councillors knowing these people who have never known anything, but benefits exist - really i do not know anyone who actually knows their local counsellors!

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TwinMama88 · 06/10/2022 10:53

Some of these replies have made me so angry. We can see why our country is in this mess when people like you support this absolute crap. Are you walking around with your head up your arse?


I'm in benefits for the first time in my life.
I've worked since a teenager, at one point having multiple jobs at once. I worked hard.
Then I had children and my ex left.
I can't afford to work right now, as childcare is so extortionate that there's no job I'm able to do that would pay for full time childcare plus my bills and feeding us.
So please tell me, what am I supposed to do?
I want to work, I don't want to be looked down upon as a scrounger because I've fell on hard times, and am struggling for a way out.
I'm being pressured to find work, and when I ask for help about what I can do regarding childcare, I'm told its my problem.
I'm a single mother, I can't work nights, I can't work weekends, unless I bend over and shove my kids up my arse.
They're not near school age yet.

So some of you are happy for me to be forced to work for my universal credit, in which I'd have to somehow pay for childcare, leaving me with no money then for my bills so I'll get into debt.
Or I can just refuse and have my money stopped and I can either have sex with strangers or sit and watch my children slowly starve to death?
But you think that's acceptable because you know, nobody should get free money right? Which isn't technically free money when I've paid tax and NI for many many years until this point.

It's a shocking idea and will see even more people falling unemployed or without the means to feed themselves and their children.

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JulieMarooley · 06/10/2022 11:23

It would be a decent idea for the civil service to expand to employ everyone who is capable to work.

I think it would cost more overall to do this, than to just pay people to do nothing, because there would need to be managers to oversee, organise, shift the workers from removing graffiti one day to clearing bins the next etc.

It would perhaps be worth it for the benefits to the workers who would otherwise be sat at home, and the benefits to society of the extra work in the community.

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JulieMarooley · 06/10/2022 11:31

One good thing about this plan could be that school-time-only work could be made available for those with childcare needs.

Single parents with kids under school age would need to be exempt.

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Octomore · 06/10/2022 11:35

JulieMarooley · 06/10/2022 11:31

One good thing about this plan could be that school-time-only work could be made available for those with childcare needs.

Single parents with kids under school age would need to be exempt.

If there is school time only work that needs doing, the relevant employers should advertise those jobs for a fair wage and people will apply.

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Grrrrdarling · 06/10/2022 11:47

WakeUpAndBe · 04/10/2022 10:24

Is it reasonable or unreasonable?

Pros: on the surface it sounds reasonable. Means the public won’t view it as “free money” if people are working 30 hours a week for a lot less than the national living wage.

Cons: risks of exploitation and returning to Charles Dickens’ style workhouses for the poor.

Chris Philp said UC claimants should be forced to ‘work for dole’

In his paper, Philp suggested those claiming universal credit should, after a certain time, have to work for their benefits if they were employed for less than 30 hours a week. He suggested those claiming benefits for a disability should be given work that they were physically able to do.
^^
“Philp said they could be asked to complete community work such as cleaning graffiti or clearing parks, charity work, supervised job searching or recognised training to top up their hours to 30 a week. He said a referral to the “work for the dole” scheme would be triggered between three months and two years after first claiming depending on previous national insurance contributions.
^^
“If anyone is not compliant with work for the dole activity requirements, they should automatically have all their universal credit payments suspended as long as the person is not working for the dole,” he wrote at the time. “Although the complete suspension of universal credit benefit payments may seem an extreme sanction, the evidence from the US suggests that this is required to make the scheme fully effective.”

Number crunching

The National Living Wage is currently £9.50 x 30 hours x 4 weeks = £1,140 for 4 weeks

According to the website, monthly UC is £265.31 for single and under 25,
£334.91 for single over 25,
£416.45 for couples under 25
and
£525.72 for couples over 25.

They are so out of touch they don’t realise that many on UC work part time for childcare reasons. They literally can’t afford to pay someone else to look after their children so they can work more hours. Also some do work 30+ hours a week yet their wage is so low or they are on 0 hour contracts so that working week is not guaranteed.
Our government are so out of touch it is u real & statements like this are disgusting, derogatory & uncalled for.
I’d like to see him work full time, while running a home & caring for children full time😡

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antelopevalley · 06/10/2022 11:56

Evidence from US suggests only way to make this work is to take away all benefits if people do not comply.
So disabled and ill people drag themselves along to litter picking so they do not starve to death. Or carers with the severely disabled people they are caring for.

This will not work. It would be very expensive to provide work disabled people can do. It is why the previous scheme just shoved people into unpaid supermarket jobs. Unless you exploit people, it will be extremely expensive.

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Gremlinsateit · 06/10/2022 12:01

Octomore · 06/10/2022 11:35

If there is school time only work that needs doing, the relevant employers should advertise those jobs for a fair wage and people will apply.

Also, here parents of children over 9 months and under school age who receive parenting payment, with some exceptions, have obligations - less onerous than full work for the dole, but still involving meetings, reporting and “activities”.

Once the youngest child is school age, again with some exceptions, there is no more parenting payment and no different treatment - ie work for the dole is not limited to school hours for primary caregivers.

I would say, be very cautious about embracing this.

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Thisismynamenow · 06/10/2022 12:08

I think its completely fair. HOWEVER the benefits must rise to NMW to cover and they must get all other working benefits.

So unemployed people get matched with a job, work FT/PT and get paid correctly by the state.

It's ridiculous to say they won't have time to find another job, all other working people manage. It may even help people find alternative employment as its easier to find a job when you have a job.

It will never happen as it would cost too much in time and money, and it is open to becoming a workhouse very quickly!

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Thisismynamenow · 06/10/2022 12:09

antelopevalley · 06/10/2022 11:56

Evidence from US suggests only way to make this work is to take away all benefits if people do not comply.
So disabled and ill people drag themselves along to litter picking so they do not starve to death. Or carers with the severely disabled people they are caring for.

This will not work. It would be very expensive to provide work disabled people can do. It is why the previous scheme just shoved people into unpaid supermarket jobs. Unless you exploit people, it will be extremely expensive.

You would have to match the person to the role. A wheelchair bound person couldn't do a heavily manual job, but they could work in an office based role with reasonable adjustments.

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antelopevalley · 06/10/2022 12:12

@Thisismynamenow then they should be paid for the work.
But a healthy person who uses a wheelchair is pretty uncommon. Most disabled people have multiple issues or mental health problems.

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WiddlinDiddlin · 06/10/2022 12:15

Kissingfrogs25 · 06/10/2022 07:21

People are not ‘working for nothing’ they are working for benefits being paid to them.

I entirely support this idea. It would encourage healthy able bodied people to get a better paid job and to start getting used to the idea. We can’t have millions languishing on the dole endlessly. It’s not good for the country or them.

You will find plenty of opposition on here. Plenty of people that are on benefits object obviously and Labour devotees but in the real world most working people want something done about it the huge volume of people on benefits as the jobs are plentiful.

But they need benefits because they cannot get or find a job - if they need to do a job to earn benefits... then there IS a job, they can do that job, so why can't they be paid a proper wage for that job, then... they'd have a job and not need benefits.

Unless - they already have a job that doesn't pay enough

  • they can't do the job in fact but it doesn't matter as its not a real job
  • the job isn't real

Is that what we should be doing, inventing jobs or forcing people to work two jobs to earn what ONE job should earn them?

Jobs should pay people enough to live on - you should not need a 'better paid job' to live without benefits top ups. Some people haven't the skills, the interest, the ambition, the physical or mental ability... to 'get a better paid job' and, there are jobs that need doing that don't require them to, but they should still be paid enough to live on, whilst doing a job that needs to be done!
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WiddlinDiddlin · 06/10/2022 12:30

Thisismynamenow · 06/10/2022 12:09

You would have to match the person to the role. A wheelchair bound person couldn't do a heavily manual job, but they could work in an office based role with reasonable adjustments.

The amount of 'reasonable adjustments' I would need to work in an office...

Widen all doorways to accomodate chair.
Provide flexible working hours such that I can turn up at whatever time, leave at whatever time.
No sickness policy, ie I can take a day/week/month off whenever, WFH whenever.
Provide personal care.
Provide bespoke desk, arm rests, leg rests, monitor.

The requirements for a great many wheelchair users will be similar because most of us are also chronically sick - the world has this vision of wheelchair users as the otherwise healthy but 'non functional legs' spinal injury cases who are fit enough to play murder ball on a weekend and build their own extension, because that is the prettier, more poster friendly side of disability.

The reality is a lot of people who don't know how each day will pan out or if they'll be able to do what they had planned. People who can be fine one minute and vomiting in a heap or out cold the next. People who may be managing pain ok today, but be curled up in agony tomorrow.

The working world does not have the flexibility to employ such people - they need predictability and reliability and thats the core of any business no matter what it does, and we just CAN'T offer that.

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antelopevalley · 06/10/2022 12:35

I used to know a man employed by his own family's firm who used a wheelchair. He also needed physical help to go to the toilet - trousers were taken down and physically stood up to pee, his food and drink making and any food cut up and places in bowl with special cutlery, and a specialist computer. The family helped him and my DP did as well, but not many people would be happy to take colleague to the toilet and cut up their lunch.

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antelopevalley · 06/10/2022 12:37

@WiddlinDiddlin Agreed. And replies here just show how little understanding of disability people have.

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Thatboymum · 06/10/2022 12:37

People who can and choose not to work should after a set amount of time be cut back and made to find work.
single parents / low earning households doing as many hours as is possible to them or ultimately no Hours if they really can’t I’m happy to be supported fully.
Disabled and carers again if they can do something absolutley if they can’t shouldn’t be punished for it and again I think deserve full support.

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puffylovett · 06/10/2022 12:42

You’ve got the number crunching wrong. If they pay monthly, then it’s £9.50 x 30 x 52 / 12, so it comes out more at £1235.

it would be nothing more than exploitation.

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KettrickenSmiled · 06/10/2022 12:44

Most people on what you term the "dole" are already working @WakeUpAndBe .

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