AIBU to believe rich people should contribute much more?

[marcusian]

A bit tongue in cheek, but given that its almost impossible for poorly paid workers including care workers and nurses to strike, and that the government have given people earning over £100K a massive pay rise, what other ways could the most wealthy be made to pay?

My idea: - a new LUXURIES tax (think 50% VAT) on things ordinary people cant buy, like superyachts, airplanes, £10K+ dining tables, a box at wimbledon, £500+ handbags, £100+ football boots!

AIBU - No - they should pay more and heres my ideas how they should do it!
AIBU - Yes - leave wealthy people alone, its not their fault

@Topgub

My example didn't run out of gold and had no imaginary apples in it - it didn't require any further gold and no exchanges took place at all. Yet there was a wealthier world at the end than at the start.

I think that you are now trying to argue there cannot be infinite further growth in the future. The example didn't;t prove nor deny that - but that's not what you said. There is now more wealth because wealth has been created.

Mary even produced wealth without any gold and no apples were ever exchanged.

Sorry, but your whole philosophy fails at its foundation because you believe wealth is only in raw matter - this clearly isn;'t true as people value more than raw materials including songs and goods made from matter, energy and inventions.

Why should one group pay more? Facts are top 1% pay a third of all tax revenue and as of 2019 42% of uk adults pay no income tax at all.

Income tax isnt the only tax revenue. I dont think its the biggest either.

But I do agree higher earners pay more tax.

Reading the Scotland section of the Times this morning, I noticed discussion about the effect of the reduction to 40% on Scotland's top earners. Some leading lawyers and investment fund managers have said publicly they would consider moving 35 miles south to Northumberland to ensure the top slice of their income is taxed under the English regime. As 0.6% of Scotland's top earners contribute 16% of the Scottish government's income, that is live proof that tax rates do alter behaviour.

It surprised me tax and behaviour isn’t an obvious link

They had a piece on the Treasury using static model rather than dynamic

Of course we’ll all seen how our behaviour is impacting by even small things. Plastic bags is a good example. Huge reduction tiny charge.

Moving is a it harder but the difference is greater

People make decisions around tax and change behaviour it does seem obvious

Of course tax and behaviour are linked. Why else do proponents of low tax insist that if you tax the rich they’ll leave the country? Why else did the housing market go to boiling point during the stamp duty holiday?

I’m surprised that people are greedy enough to uproot their families to save 5p in the £ on a fraction of their income but I suppose that’s naive. It’s impossible to overestimate some people’s avarice.

@Turkey98

think that you are now trying to argue there cannot be infinite further growth in the future

Not now, no. Always was. Literally said endless growth multiple times

The very rich have to peddle the idea of endless growth because capitalism doesn't work without it. The everyone can have wealth if they just work hard enough doesn't work with out it

And that is the point you're ignoring on your quest to prove me wrong.

It’s not just people moving to England that is an issue, it’s people / companies choosing not to move to Scotland that were thinking of doing so that’s an issue. Firms not choosing mm to base themselves in Scotland.

in some situations you can choose the image of a socially progressive country or you can maximise tax take, but not both.

personally, I would keep the 45% as I think sooner or later there will be a uturn in Westminster

I disagree with the OP. I would like to see the government invest in more resources to crack down on financial crime and recover a proportion of the billions it has lost. The UK has lost billions through wide scale fraud, including but not limited to Covid fraud, and does not have the appetite or resource to recover even a small proportion of it. I would also like the government to invest in green energy/ support green energy which will reduce cost and environmental harm in the long term. Tinkering with top tax rates is more likely to result in a loss of revenue for the treasury if the country is seen as a heavy tax jurisdiction.

@topgub At 11:22 you asked exactlhy the following:

Can you give me an example of brand new wealth creation?

Something that created wealth that didn't exist previously?

Given that money is a made up concept anyway?

---

You now have that example. You are wrong.

Wealth creation for our foreseeable lifetimes is entirely possible for all. Given that wealth is created by innovation and effort - those who work hard and effectively by doing the most valuable work to increase wealth can always do so.

Why do you believe that people will stop producing art, movies, inventions and technological advance?

Clearly, in 150 billion years when the universe has died and the distances to travel are limited by physics I will agree - but then the people won't exist, so its meaningless, but say for the next 10,000 years wealth is purely limited by the population.

What crap. I was born into a family that thought my only function in life was to get married off at 16 and pop out kids. No the life I wanted.
I ran away from home with nothing. I didn't even have GCSE's.
Worked my arse off AND kept going and yes, today I'm wealthy and pay far, far more into the system then I've ever taken out of it.
Private health care including dental.
Private schooling.
Giving to charity.
Outsourcing and employing people and paying them far ABOVE minimum wage.
And yes, I also own very nice things that I've worked for. No favours or Uncles here.

Point is, if there is no medical impairment, you absolutely can make good choices for yourself, just means prioritising progression over being lazy.

Before anyone jumps in, I know life doesn't have a set path and things can and do change but I equally know that A LOT more people whine about what they don't have, comparing and finger pointing instead of being honest about why they are where they are and why the people they're comparing to are where they are. I see a lot of pretty entitled and lazy people.

What age are you @BecauseICan22 ?

Im guessing you were 16 a long time ago.

Its a different world out there now.

Presumably they were 16 a long time ago because the achievements they made didn’t happen overnight. What is your point exactly, and how old are you?

I would like to see more incentives for the hardworking rich who manage businesses. I would like to see the gov making things easier for them to run businesses and not put hurdles. We lack producing in this country and I wonder why. These rich people if anything have to jump through more hurdles financially . If anything, our country seems to make it harder for the hardworking rich and the op is wrong about that. The op and those who think the rich should cough up more in tax would only make matters worse economically. For instance if I was to be a business owner, I would say "well fuck that" take my business to another country. You should target the elite, the 1% and not the rich group or middle class who pays the most tax and carry the most financial burden to get this country running or the working class.

What a pile of crap.
Wealthy people are far more likely to NOT use the resources they STILL PAY for like the NHS and schools. They are far more likely to use private healthcare, private care homes, and private schools for their children.
They contribute 46% of their salary where I live. How is that NOT contributing? They work for almost half the year before seeing a penny of their own earning for services they will probably never use themselves.
How do they take more? They receive NO benefits, NO tax free allowance etc.
Exploitation and greed? Bollocks.

These threads just show the absolute bitterness and jealousy towards high earners. Stereotypical nonsense.
How about the stereotypes of the low earner? There are a LOT.

42, yes it's a different world. However, its's always going to be 'a different world', that's the nature of life and evolution.

I absolutely know life is bone crunchingy hard and it's soul destroying to have to fight to survive. I support and care for those that simply can't do it for themselves. It might be because of their mental/physical, age related health. I advocate for our most vulnerable and my income is hugely used to help and support others. They need my help.

I cannot stand the lazy individuals who complain about everything but cannot put in the hard work. There are so, so many people like this out there, tearing down the 'rich' but doing nothing to better their own circumstances.
I've survived on 2 hours sleep at times, working and studying.
I've been through horrific child abuse (sexual and violence) from being as little as I can remember right upto when I ran away from home.
I've given birth 3 times.
I've had a traumatic divorce which led to me being a lone parent for 7 years and this year alone, I've suffered 4 consecutive pregnancy losses.

I KNOW how hard it is.

My 15 year old is desperately trying to get a part time job and learn about money management. You know why? Because she says that when she goes to Uni, she's going to work and study at the same time to support herself so she'd like to learn that now.
Does she have to? Hell no, she'll never go without but the fact that she has zero privilege or entitlement in her, considering the life she has been blessed with, yeah I can respect her work ethic. It's the same as mine.

Tax should increase as wealth increases. People should only pay tax once they earn above the average wage, tapering up the further above the average they are. Wealth should also be taxed, say 10% per year of any assets over £500k. Everyone who was born in the UK or has lived here should be forced to pay even if they relinquish their citizenship or move abroad.

@Turkey98

still missing the point

I can only presume its deliberate now

£3 million won't buy you a super yacht, they start around £10 million. Most superyachts are owned by businesses and shell companies and registered in tax havens such as Monarco, the Camens, Cyprus, London etc.

Of course tax rates change behaviour. Only the very naive would think they don't. In fact, Gordon Brown's paymaster general, Dawn Primarolo said in Parliament that she didn't think sole traders would become limited companies "just to save tax", at a time when record numbers of sole traders were converting to limited companies because of the lower taxes for limited companies at that time! Talk about being naive, or maybe just deluded!

I am an accountant. I see behavioural aspects of tax on an almost daily basis, such as several IT contractor clients who moved abroad when IR35 was extended in 2017 and 2021. They were already considering moving abroad, but IR35 was the straw that broke the camel's back and they went! They now do the same work, for the same international firms, but the difference is that the UK Treasury get nothing from them, no income tax, no corporation tax, no NIC, and no VAT because they don't spend in the UK, no fuel/tobacco duties, etc etc. That's a massive "shoot yourself in the foot" moment for the UK Treasury who now receive tens of thousands less because they were too greedy and wanted a few thousand more! Tellingly, a couple of those have already emailed me considering returning to the UK now that the IR35 changes have been overturned as per the mini Budget announcement!

Same with the £50-£60k and £100-£125k income levels where there are circa 70% marginal tax rates. Nearly all my clients who fall into those income levels make additional pension contributions to get their taxable income down below the threshold. Because of that HMRC lose out because tax is paid on a lower level and they have to give pension tax relief too! So again, by wanting more tax they end up with less!

It's about time that The Treasury and HMRC actually accepted that behavioural issues are important re their taxation, but for the 20 year years, they've just stuck their fingers in their ears chanting "la la la" rather than accepting the reality and Dawn Primarolo's comments prove that!

My parents were barely literate immigrants and became rich. When they first arrived they worked in factories and foundaries. Trust me this country is full of opportunity - poor people are not stuck being poor they have so many more life chances than they realise.

and don’t talk to me about the cycle of abuse breaking free cos my father was physically and mentally abused but broke free.

Indeed, and it's well reported that Lewis Hamilton avoided paying VAT on his private jet by use of shell companies and buying it via the Isle of Man.

Absolutely

Possibly hard to model I don’t know but I was surprised that it wasn’t part of the system which is static

Same with the £50-£60k and £100-£125k income levels where there are circa 70% marginal tax rates. Nearly all my clients who fall into those income levels make additional pension contributions to get their taxable income down below the threshold. Because of that HMRC lose out because tax is paid on a lower level and they have to give pension tax relief too! So again, by wanting more tax they end up with less!

I get the 100k-120k bracket because of the loss of personal allowance.

But why the 50k-60k?

Interesting that people think it's OK to behave selfishly when it comes to evading tax but are absolutely disgusted when people behave selfishly when claiming benefits

Also I'm not bitter, jealous and I dont hate rich people.

It is possible to be critical of wealth inequality without any of the above.

Its a shame people jump to the defensive /insults