AIBU to believe rich people should contribute much more?

[marcusian]

A bit tongue in cheek, but given that its almost impossible for poorly paid workers including care workers and nurses to strike, and that the government have given people earning over £100K a massive pay rise, what other ways could the most wealthy be made to pay?

My idea: - a new LUXURIES tax (think 50% VAT) on things ordinary people cant buy, like superyachts, airplanes, £10K+ dining tables, a box at wimbledon, £500+ handbags, £100+ football boots!

AIBU - No - they should pay more and heres my ideas how they should do it!
AIBU - Yes - leave wealthy people alone, its not their fault

You're right in theory, for probably most of the higher earners under the "super rich" bracket. Higher earners such as doctors and dentists probably spend most of their income, on, as you say, higher priced cars, maybe better restaurants, bigger house meaning more house maintenance costs, higher priced foods/wines etc., higher priced clothes. So will pay plenty in VAT and other duties.

It's the super rich who save/invest a higher proportion of their income who won't pay proportionally similar amounts in indirect tax, because they won't be spending the same proportion of their income as more "normal" earners. There's no VAT if they buy a few foreign properties, no VAT if they buy their yacht or plane via a tax haven trust arrangement, etc.

@Topgub

I also don't buy into the narrative that all higher earners pay upwards of 50% tax on their whole wage/income. Estimates (depending on avoidance etc) range from 10 to 50. Pretty big range. And of course some pay 0.

Higher earners like doctors are usually paid via PAYE so have few options to reduce their circa 50% tax/nic deductions!

I think you may be meaning the super rich, i.e. millionaires etc who won't be on PAYE so have much more choice, including residing abroad or buying their expensive luxuries VAT free abroad. Without global tax laws agreed by all countries (which will never happen), I look forward to hearing how you'd deal with highly mobile super rich who can choose where to live for tax reasons and can choose where to buy their luxury goods!

Higher earners like doctors are usually paid via PAYE so have few options to reduce their circa 50% tax/nic deductions!

From their NHS work, yes. Their private work is another ballgame. I’m sure accountants are very creative on their behalf with the eye watering amounts that brings in. There used to be a consultant’s wife who posted here, her husband worked in the NHS primarily for the pension apparently, their main income derived from his private work and some btls. No ni and maximised tax benefits on that.

Thank you.

I suppose that takes us back to the fact that if we put massive tax on things the super rich might buy here, they will buy elsewhere, so actually more damaging.

But wouldn’t that be about closing loopholes? I know several Doctors who work for the nhs. My best friend is a midwife and my dad also works in the nhs.

Non work privately. Why are you talking as though all doctors work privately? Because a MNers son is.

Besides which, that would be about closing loop holes. What the point in taxing more if they are avoiding it anyway?

Why are you talking as though all doctors work privately?

Because a very high percentage do. There’s a shortage of GPs partly because so many are moving to work outside the NHS. In tertiary care almost all surgeons have a private practice, so do dermatologists and other specialists in areas which are now considered luxuries by the NHS.

It’s only going to increase as more people who can afford private care get fed up with sitting on waiting lists. It’s a vicious circle. Hell, I’m totally opposed ideologically to paying for healthcare but, faced with rapidly going blind, I put my principles in my pocket and coughed up £5k for my cataract surgery. If only I could have paid that to the NHS …

But what’s ‘many’?

and as I said you could increase tax for those people, but if they avoid tax anyway, it won’t impact them. Don’t see how those few doctors just doing a bit in the nhs for pension and working mainly private, would be impacted.

I also thought the big concern with GPS were that many had or planned on retiring.

I've been unlucky enough to have had to have a fair few surgical procedures over recent years done under the NHS.
I can only guess that what they receive by working for the NHS isn't sufficient to live how they deem the want to so supplement it with private work.
But hopefully they'll still continue to both where possible

Of the four different surgeon's that done my operations all four also work at at least two different private hospitals.
If you know the surgeon by name a quick Google will give you all the info you need.

I know surgeons do it. But not ‘doctors’ in general in large numbers and avoid paying tax.

Certainly not heard of an issue with GPS leaving in large numbers to go private.

Sorry, but you had to pay privately for something as vital as cataract surgery?

OMG

Thats actually barbaric. Presumably it was because there was an incredibly long waiting list on the NHS and your sight/quality of life/ability to work would have deteriorated if you had wated for the NHS to do it?

Seriously though, with things like cataract surgery, you do wonder what you are paying tax for if you are put in the position of having to pay for it privately.

I think the NHS encourages bad practises in many areas, although the doctors, nurses and other staff may be highly skilled and dedicated. Thank goodness I'm going to be under the French system soon.

People are paying privately for all sorts of essential procedures. I paid for a private smear a few days ago as the NHS won’t look at cells unless you are HPV+. My mum paid for a hysterectomy as the NHS wanted to do a cheap tape fix instead of what she needed. She had a major prolapse after twins. (Years after obv) and they wanted her to wait months and then have an op that fails pretty often.

Presumably it was because there was an incredibly long waiting list on the NHS and your sight/quality of life/ability to work would have deteriorated if you had wated for the NHS to do it?

Yup. I was told not to drive and the waiting list was two years. I had them done in two weeks privately. It was worth every penny.

Or that sports direct have sold out of all the cheap boots in your kids size !!
move never quite hit the 100 quid on boots - but I have by the time I’ve bought socks to go with them!

I've never heard of GP's leaving the NHS but ay my old practice when I once went for a blood test the nurse

Opps sent to soon...
Was ran off her feet and said that the GP's had double booked appointments...I didn't get it as you have to go through reception but she explained they started doing private blood tests with booking via a different service, so the two weren't booked via the same place.

DH's cataracts were done privately for the exact same reason. Two year wait for the NHS v a fortnight privately @Blossomtoes . Plus the surgeon was the internationally renowned professor of opthalmology at the local medical school.

How on earth can any civilised country make people wait 2 years for cataract surgery?

What is the point of paying so much tax and having an NHS if you can't get things like cataract surgery done within a reasonable time? Many people won't be able to afford to go privately.

Of course not and I feel desperately sorry for people who can’t. But what would you do if you had the money to pay? Quite honestly I was just pleased to be in such a fortunate position. I struggled with my conscience, I loathe buying privilege but I guess I loathed going blind more. It’s a tough call.

Thing is it is sooooo localised. Our local hospital has decided to prioritise cataracts, quick in and out, easy win, reduces their waiting list. 8 week wait for first consultation, 24 weeks for treatment. Still not great, but certainly not 2 years!!

Oh, I don't blame you at all. But some people will actually go blind or lose their jobs because of this. It puts a whole different spin on those charity ads you see asking you to give money for a woman in India who cannot see and cataract surgery will cost £xxx to enable her to see again. I don't mean to stereotype or pretend that other people have harder lives. But actually letting people go blind? Jesus Christ.

And of course it and wait times and availability other treatments should be standardised across the UK. That should be one of the main benefits of having an NHS as opposed to a private system...

@Blossomtoes "I really don’t understand why people keep trotting this out. Where are these 600,000 people going to move to? Taxes are higher in most English speaking countries, they’re certainly higher in Scandinavia and Europe’s closed to us. Where is this low tax utopia all these wealthy people are going to flock to?"

Why do you assume that people will only move to Europe?? I know countless people who moved to the Middle East just to pay less tax as they were tired of paying so much and getting so little for it in the U.K. if Labour came into power and increased tax above the already high tax that higher earners currently pay, I know multiple people who plan to move to the Middle East and their jobs are highly transferable.

Such rubbish.
Waiting lists are ridiculously long yes. But we pick up things like cataracts ridiculously early. I have been a GP for over 20 years and have never even heard of anyone going blind while waiting for surgery. Just nonsense.
And if you think for one single moment we are comparable in health care to any 3rd world country then you are bloody deluded and not even aware of the extent of your privilege.

I have been a GP for over 20 years and have never even heard of anyone going blind while waiting for surgery. Just nonsense

It isn’t nonsense. My cataracts were detected by my ophthalmologist, they were very aggressive. The surgeon who carried out the surgery forbade me to drive at the first consultation. I would definitely have been unable to see at all within two years.

So you can’t actually refute that, but you think maybe you might have gone blind?

The ophthalmologist who carried out my surgery said my sight would be completely gone within six months. I have absolutely no reason to doubt his word. But obviously some random on the Internet knows better