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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask about investment bankers

105 replies

draydee · 26/09/2022 12:18

My DS wants to be an investment banker.

I would like to support him, but is it true there is a lot of nepotism in this industry? Or can an higher level apprenticeship or university suffice if you don't have connections?

Also why do they incite such vitriol?

Is it true they barely sleep and burn out?

I would like to give him the full picture from the experiences of others.

OP posts:
Fairylightsandcinnamon · 26/09/2022 12:29

Hi Op I am not one but have friends who are and my partner used to be one.

The hours are very long and mentally exhausting. I do know people who have elected after 10 or so years and moved to a less stressful job. The pay is high but they don't have much time to spend it if you see what I mean. Also depends on whether you mean working in an IB or working as an investment banker ( slightly different). If the latter, hours are usually say 8.30/9am and can go on well into midnight/1am usually as well as weekends.University degree is a must nowadays with some banks asking for MBA. I'm not sure about nepotism, the ones in my circle got here without knowing anyone in the industry beforehand but did do internships which they applied for whilst at university.

Icanstillrecallourlastsummer · 26/09/2022 12:30

There are few jobs where you earn that type of money without a high degree of competitiveness, stress and long hours. I am not entirely sure what you are expecting. Some people thrive on that though...

candycaneframe · 26/09/2022 12:32

You need to be built for it imo

My BIL is currently a hedge fund manager and has worked his way up from uni, no nepotism, came from a very WC background.

But you have to be a bit ruthless, accept during your early 20-early 30's you'll have no life, you need to be mentally strong, cope with long hours, be a bit cold to get ahead.

It's also a role where you need to act fast to get in the door, most go in straight from uni.

maxelly · 26/09/2022 12:33

No personal experience but have relatives in the field so can share a little. No I don't think it's necessary these days to have connections, but to make it into the top banking positions where you earn the megabucks you need to be very, very bright, top academic results from a very good university (Oxbridge ideally), highly numerate and articulate and also have a certain personality type, not necessarily your archtypeal banker arsehole but certainly driven, confident, persuasive, able to cope well with pressure and work at speed, and absolutely prepared to dedicate your whole life (evenings, weekends, holidays etc) to work for a significant period of time, particularly while you are a junior but really for as long as you want to be earning the ££££. The best route is in graduate entry so have a google around their process and requirements.

That being said, being an 'investment banker' and 'working for an investment bank' or in the banking field are very different games, there are all sorts of other jobs that banks employ which although not paid the huge salaries, also don't come with such huge pressures. People I know that were interested in the industry but didn't quite make it or weren't quite suited to the pure banker or trader roles have gone into fields like compliance, security, accounting, management consulting, normally with a first degree in a vaguely mathematical/business oriented subject and then further post-grad qualifications, sometimes via a grad scheme or on the job. Don't know about apprenticeships but I expect there are some especially at the high street banks and these can be a good way in.

The hatred is complicated, partially simple dislike of anyone seen to earn a huge salary from moving money around and there can be a perception (partially justified) that banks make money off the failures of others and/or are parasites on the capitalistic system without actually doing anything to create wealth themselves. It's also partially a class issue where bankers are seen as 'new money' and therefore flashy, vulgar etc. Thing is nearly every single profession has its haters (lawyers, teachers, accountants, police, doctors, nurses, management consultants, GP receptionists Grin the list goes on), particularly those that so if your son is ambitious and wants to make good money, particularly in a corporate field he'll have to learn to live with his profession being slagged off on the internet every so often, that or people just never having heard of it...

skgnome · 26/09/2022 12:34

I know some
while is true that the hours and the workload in London are crazy
a lot move out to smaller cities, still financial hubs, where the hours are more family friendly (the ones I know work in Scotland and they moved from London for quality of life)
while is true the salaries are no way near london, they are still well paid
a good university degree with internships / graduate programs is a great way to get in

Neolara · 26/09/2022 12:37

Both my brothers were investment bankers after uni. They got paid squillions but basically had no life other than work for about 10 years. They barely saw their kids when the were little. Both now work in other areas and have very interesting jobs with much better work / life balance. They also have enormous houses in very posh parts of London.

maxelly · 26/09/2022 12:44

How old is your son OP? It's great to have ambition (whether that's to earn really good money or have a 'prestige' career or work in a specific industry), but the best way to encourage him (assuming he's teens or early 20s) is to encourage him to keep his options open, as at this age they really can have quite narrow views, half of their possible careers options they have no idea whatsoever even exist or don't even exist yet (the world of work is changing so quickly), and they can get strange fixed ideas in their heads, my brightest child who was encouraged by school to consider law wrote it off entirely because she (erroneously) thought being in law meant being a barrister and having to do stirring public speeches in court all the time. When she realized the vast range of different legal careers there are she pivoted and did a law conversion after her first degree, it all worked out great and she now works in mergers and acquisitions for a huge corporate law firm, she basically never even has to set foot in court and certainly no '12 good men' speeches Grin.

My advice to you (and him) would be to get the best grades possible in school, choosing subjects that he is good at and enjoys but also keep his uni options open. Then go to the best uni he can, not necessarily choosing the subject most closely related to what he thinks he'd want to do for a job (with the exception of medicine/dentistry/vet medicine and maybe some forms of engineering you can basically always convert to a more vocational course with a masters or other post-grad study) - yes if he's sure he wants law do law or accounting do accounting, but it's not necessary and if he actually ends up finding it boring and not what he wants then it's a bit of a waste of uni time...

draydee · 26/09/2022 13:00

Thank you for your replies. I just think that health is wealth and work/life balance in an interesting is more valuable.

He doesn't want to go to university he wants to do a higher level apprenticeship after A levels.

The thing is I think careers advice is dismal. Is there a way to pay for professional careers advice?

He has also mentioned accountancy.

@maxelly he is 16 and starting to think about A level subjects. He is definitely doing Maths and probably Geography and he doesn't know the third subject to do.

I need to ask other people, as I had no guidance and after doing a core subject at uni, I went from one dead end job to another. I didn't have a clue and I don't want that to happen to him.
So although it is early for him to be thinking about careers I am glad that he is asking for guidance.

OP posts:
Longbin · 26/09/2022 13:14

@draydee I work at an investment bank but I am not a trader.

I'm not sure if you can go into trading without a degree, you definitely couldn't when I left uni. Other areas would be possible if he could get an apprenticeship but he would need to be applying for open days/weeks now

Getoff · 26/09/2022 13:20

Here's a youtube video from someone who started as a trader and retired after about six years. (Although in another of his videos he says that's no longer possible due to changes in the industry.) He was from a poor London background, and only knew what he had to do to get the job because the parents of his Indian schoolfriends told him.

draydee · 26/09/2022 13:23

@Longbin where do you find open days/weeks?
As I said I have no idea how to navigate professional careers and the schools don't seem to help.

OP posts:
Getoff · 26/09/2022 13:23

Should have explained, the video specifically addresses the point that most people don't understand what they have to do to get very high-paying jobs.

candycaneframe · 26/09/2022 13:27

draydee · 26/09/2022 13:00

Thank you for your replies. I just think that health is wealth and work/life balance in an interesting is more valuable.

He doesn't want to go to university he wants to do a higher level apprenticeship after A levels.

The thing is I think careers advice is dismal. Is there a way to pay for professional careers advice?

He has also mentioned accountancy.

@maxelly he is 16 and starting to think about A level subjects. He is definitely doing Maths and probably Geography and he doesn't know the third subject to do.

I need to ask other people, as I had no guidance and after doing a core subject at uni, I went from one dead end job to another. I didn't have a clue and I don't want that to happen to him.
So although it is early for him to be thinking about careers I am glad that he is asking for guidance.

Well if he doesn't want to do a degree he doesn't really want to become an investment banker.

draydee · 26/09/2022 13:30

@Getoff yes exactly why I am posting!

My grandfather was a nuclear engineer, but he is long gone and all the other people with very high paying, interesting professional roles have retired now.

I don't want to let him down by not being able to guide him in a career that he wants to do.

OP posts:
Puppypads · 26/09/2022 13:31

He is highly, highly unlikely to get into IB without a university degree. I worked in Equities/IB for 15 years. There are occasional exceptions- eg star traders who came in via a non conventional route but most of us were either via the graduate program or lateral hires (poached from another bank).
To be honest it sounds like he doesn't really know what 'investment banking' is. You can work in an investment bank as a banker, trader, analyst, strategist, programmer, HR professional...
The traditional I-banker is usually on a sectoral team eg tech. They work with clients on fund raising, mergers and acquisitions, restructuring of debt etc. lots of power points, spreadsheets, legal docs.
The markets businesses (fixed income, currency, commodities, equities) sell the debt/shares in listed companies to institutional clients.
He will need to be highly numerate, articulate, driven, efficient, and willing to cancel plans pretty much every weekend as some deal looms. He will have to be prepared for the possibility of burnout within 2-3 years. If he makes it to VP after 5 years or so, things get better and he hands over the shit-work to some other poor graduate.

bakehimawaytoys · 26/09/2022 13:31

Has he been watching the HBO series Industry by any chance?

I have friends in investment banking and not in a million years would i encourage my kids to get into it. Widespread drug abuse, brutal performance management and an incredibly high burnout rate. It's especially tough at the junior end. There are other ways to make lots of money.

MrAutumnal · 26/09/2022 13:33

Based on my experience with close family members, there’s no way to get these roles without straights A’s and a 1st class degree at a Russell Group uni or Oxbridge. There will then be additional training such as CFA. Having gone to the right school, playing the right sports etc. also helps. Not saying it’s never happened but I don’t know any IBs who got their via an apprenticeship route.

Huge salary, very long hours (being at your desk from 6.30am) and aggressive competitive environment. Lots of rounds of redundancies. Most IBs I know did it until 40’s then went to do other roles. All very wealthy.

edwinbear · 26/09/2022 13:35

I work in IB, although not technically an investment banker, I sell interest rate derivatives, but based on the trading floor. DH was an FX trader for nearly 30 yrs (we met at work). There's no nepotism involved, in fact banks are very keen on diversity and inclusion these days, it's much improved from when I started, as one of about 5 women on the floor.

He'll absolutely need a degree, if he wants to trade, most of it is algo based these days, so maths and IT are what they look for. Hours can be brutal as a junior, but as you become more senior, becomes less so - as the juniors do the number crunching. It's not a terribly secure career - DH and I have had 3 redundancies between us, but it can be very lucrative. Bankers are absolutely despised though so he'll need a tough skin!

TheMoops · 26/09/2022 13:36

The thing is I think careers advice is dismal. Is there a way to pay for professional careers advice?

His school should be providing him with independent careers advice from a qualified Careers Adviser - if they aren't then they are failing in the statutory duty.

You can pay for this privately if you think your school is failing this this area but beware that basically anyone can call themselves a careers adviser. Look for someone who is qualified to at least a level 6 in advice and guidance but preferably someone who holds a postgraduate qualification in Careers Guidance with professional accreditation.

draydee · 26/09/2022 13:47

@bakehimawaytoys hmm not sure about the HBO series lol - I want to watch it now!
But yes I wanted to get the full picture from others who have experience in IB, as I heard about the realities.

@TheMoops Thank you for that advice. I really appreciate it.

What degrees are good for getting a professional career in finances and analyst type roles, that are well respected?

OP posts:
Kissingfrogs25 · 26/09/2022 13:47

Op he won't even get an interview without an amazing and glittering degree from Oxford, Cambridge or Harvard or similar, at masters level minimum and that might get you an interview if you are of the best calibre. Being well qualified won't be enough, you also have to have high energy, capable of serious and fast decision making and be razor sharp. You don't get paid millions to be average.

Yes you work hard (you can do long hours in any job) but you will be extremely well paid and have opportunities that would not be available elsewhere.

If he hasn't achieved straight As in his A levels and is not going to a world class university then he might be better attempting the research route or similar.

Everyone wants to be an investment banker but very few make it. I have been married to one for twenty years, and you need nerves of pure steel and energy to match.

Kissingfrogs25 · 26/09/2022 13:49

Your son needs to be Economics op.
Does he have an A or A* star in maths at A level? That would be a good starting point for him.

Dogtooth · 26/09/2022 13:49

Does he really know what it is? I don't think you can make it without a degree. Is he just fantasising about easy ways to get rich? He needs a bit of philosophy I think - what matters most in life, what gives life meaning, how important is money and what should you be prepared to do for it...

He might be interested in business more generally, which I think is much easier to get into without a degree.

I've known a few people who worked in the city. Bright people, felt like they were owned by their companies, but made a calculation that it was worth losing their 20s and 30s to accumulate wealth for an easy life after that. Works fine if you don't lose your mind, drop dead from stress or mind missing out on decades of your life in the meantime.

Some of the people I knew were pleasant, but higher than average proportion of twats - from cocaine and arrogance. Also with very little spare time, you can't really invest in relationships so it becomes a bit transactional - they wanted high status girlfriends without having to put much work in, basically.

Kissingfrogs25 · 26/09/2022 13:50

**Needs to READ Economics

Getoff · 26/09/2022 13:54

Summarising the advice from the video, as I remember it from last time I watched...

  1. To get a top job, you need the right degree
  2. from an elite university
  3. for which you need all A and A* grades in A-levels
  4. in the right subjects
Regarding point 2, In the video Gary discusses a girl he know who went to Manchester Metropolitan University, who not only did not understand the difference between that and Manchester University, she didn't even know they weren't the same institution.