To ask about investment bankers

[draydee]

My DS wants to be an investment banker.

I would like to support him, but is it true there is a lot of nepotism in this industry? Or can an higher level apprenticeship or university suffice if you don't have connections?

Also why do they incite such vitriol?

Is it true they barely sleep and burn out?

I would like to give him the full picture from the experiences of others.

21 I would say is plenty young enough to go back and fill in any gaps if it transpires he has any, not that there are that many careers that really require specific a levels, but if say he develops a burning passion to do medicine but didn't do biology a level he can do that in a year after a first degree and then go for graduate or UG entry medicine. Or if he stuffs up a levels totally and takes a few years out to work, he can go back to study and then university later, mid 20s would be a fine age to graduate university accounting for a few years worth of mess-ups and wrong turnings. Obviously it's different (but not impossible) to do a total career change u turn in your 30s or 40s when you have a family to support, but I don't like the idea kids need to put themselves into a career box in their late teens and too bad if it's the wrong box.

Like I say it would be much better to focus on doing well at a levels for now, pick the a levels in subjects he likes and will do well in, that in itself will make it more likely he gets into his first choice uni and/or subsequent career, there's no point doing maths if he doesn't enjoy it and is bad at it on some shaky idea of being a banker or accountant, when you'll never do well as a banker or accountant if you hate maths! Yes it's fun and good to speculate about careers if this motivates them but not the be-all-and-end-all IMO

@Getoff that was a really interested video thank you.

@Jessibeth no he does want to do A levels I think you read that wrong. It is Uni he is unsure of and tbh I think it's because he thinks I am going to financially struggle to send him there.

I was an ib trader. What previous posters have said have largely been my experience, although I didn't find the hours tough.

Most people get in through the graduate scheme (top grades from a top uni), but there is definitely still nepotism going on. I personally got in through connections and at that time I also knew of at least 2 others whose fathers arranged for internships for them after which they were hired.

I think most of us were either nerds who had a serious interest in quant or just really motivated by the money. I found the pay very rewarding.

The only realistic option if he does not want to go to University is an apprenticeship.

Big 4 offer this (School Leavers program) but IB I have never seen.

He needs to get a degree if wants to be an investment banker or accountant.

Why will you struggle? He will pay for the degree right with a government backed loan.

I would agree with this. And, honestly, you need to be able to schmooze and socialise with ease. Even if you're not working per se, you'll be out for dinners (and other things) with clients a lot.

Older investment bankers tend to have a lot more balance - but they've done the hard slog to get there. Traders live at/for work.

Travel costs?

Accomodation costs?

Books?

They all add up to quite a bit.

Millions of students manage. A part time job will pay for extras and the loan should cover the necessities such as accommodation.

Two types in IB:

The technical types (A)

The business types (B)

The business types usually get paid more vs technical because IB is about sell, sell, sell. You have to be able to schmooze your clients, and sell them a pitch.

You still need to have the technical folks as they are the ones that do the pricing.

I doubt he'd get very far if he hasn't got at least a finance degree and a few years as a junior working insane hours under his belt. Without that I don't think anyone would even look at him. Sorry OP I don't think it's realistic.

I used to be an EA in investment banking. It was not uncommon for me to come in at 7am and see analysts STILL at their desk from the night before. i also saw analysts collapse from exhaustion on the floorplate. I wouldnt recommend it at all!

He will need a degree minimum, in a Quantitative field like Economics, and Maths and statistics, or an MBA in Quantitative Finance. Without Maths courses in high school, university, its pretty hard to get a foot in the traditional investment banking areas such as trading, investment management, risk. With Accounting qualifications E.g chartered accountancy, you could look at Finance, Product Control roles.
An apprenticeship will get him nowhere unless his dad is a senior MD

I'm not sure this is still the case (although it definitely was in the 90s). I worked with one guy with History, another Classics, and some people in sales and marketing had different degrees, but now I think the majority have something relevant to banking.

The point I was trying to make is that the vast majority of people did accountancy (or law) qualifications before going into corporate finance. For me, my degree didn't really matter to get into a Big Four and take my ACA although you'd need to show some evidence of numeracy. The accountancy and law qualifications became the stepping stone to CF, so degrees were one step removed from that. Nearly all of my ACA peers went into corporate finance as soon as they qualified.

I'm not sure about corporate financiers being drug-addled womanisers though... There was some serious partying when we finally escaped the office but most people were in long-term relationships and too tired to have the effort of seeing anyone else!

Wow so many good insights. Thank you.

I don't think he should go to university without a profession and a solid career path in mind.

Also, what do people advise their children to do if they aren't A*, First class honours Russel University graduated, gifted academics but are intelligent? Are they all destined for unfulfilling jobs with piss poor salaries?

Most people advise them to do a wide range of other careers that don't feature a degree from a prestigious uni

There are millions of them

Encourage them into another profession that isn’t IB. It’s brutal and that starts with the entry requirements.

plenty of other jobs in finance apart from IB.

I work in for a large IB and we do have an apprenticeship scheme. It extremely competitive and they are all top performers so if he would need very good grades and charisma, this would be the same for the Grad scheme. One apprentice I managed in Middle Office did get a job as a Junior Trader after her apprenticeship had finished so it is possible.
If he goes straight into trading then a degree would likely be required but I have worked with lots of people without degrees that start in MO roles supporting sales and then move to FO once they've proven themselves and made good relationships with the desk.
Hours on the trading floor are very long and you really need a thick skin and confidence.

You don't need to be so black and white about it! There are thousands and thousands of career options that fall somewhere in between 'investment banker or high flying lawyer earning squillions' and 'boring minimum wage job' (and even people doing the latter can be perfectly happy if they find fulfillment somewhere outside work, e.g. in creative endeavors or hobbies or raising a family).

With more middle of the road careers there does tend to come a choice between absolute fulfillment (i.e. enjoying every minute of your working day, always delighted to go to work, would do it for free if you weren't paid) and earning an above-average wage, unless they are either super talented at and are one of the lucky few that earns well from something like art or sports, or again in the lucky minority that absolutely love spreadsheets or computer programming or similar! But I'm of the belief that that's just what the real world is like and that's OK, you can be content without being deliriously happy all the time, and the majority of people can find a job that both pays the bills and is at least moderately fulfilling, either in being interesting work in and of itself, OR is valuable morally and 'does good' (teaching etc I would say falls into this bracket AND/OR pays well enough that it facilitates a nice enough lifestyle to be worth being mildly bored or stressed 8 hours per day, I'd even so so far as to say many jobs fulfill 2 out of 3 of these criteria and that's enough for me at least!

Like I say I would advise my bright-but-not-Oxbridge-then Big 4-material child (I had 3 of these so have been through it) to do the following:

-Choose subjects to study that interest you and you are good at, you only get one go usually at education so it's a pity to waste it being bored or struggling through subjects you aren't good at.
-Work hard and do your very best in your exams/grades (succeeded with 2 out of 3 children there lol)
-Go to university if you can and your grades are good enough
-Be flexible in your career choices and not afraid to change tack and go back a step if you've found a better path.
-Develop self-awareness and be confident to choose what's right for you, not what the 'world' or the majority (or even your parents!) think is best (the last one a little too much to ask of many 16 year olds I think which I why I advocate for flexibility)

Several of the most senior people I know didn’t do a degree until they had been in the world of banking for several years. (commercial rather than IB) and that also applies to several non-banking extremely senior people too. It’s not a requirement if someone is truly gifted.

If he doesn’t fancy going to university straight away, it’s not the end of the world. Several of the big consultancy firms are doing accountancy apprenticeships, though obviously still competitive. Having said that the one in the offices next door to us does seem to have an influx of identikit chinos/blue shirts turning up every year!

He might consider looking at being an actuary. It’s very well paid. He needs to be good at Math. He could study actuarial science at university. Or do a degree in a related subject - friend did economics. And then work and do the actuarial qualifications at the same time. Firms will pay for his exams.

My DS works in an investment bank and my DH retired from a different one earlier this year. My DS has maths, physics and economics A levels. He has a first class degree in economics from
a non Russel group university.

IB like Goldmann Sachs offer Degree Apprenticeships but you need A levels for that. They are very competitive, yoi'd usually have streight As in Maths, Further Maths and Economics, but the main clincher is the assessment test, which is basically a standardised numerical test. Then it's work for the next decades, 6 days week, 18 hrs day.

I don't think he should go to university without a profession and a solid career path in mind
I don’t think I’ve ever know anyone to regret going to university but I’ve know over 20 people at least who now wish they had a degree.