To think a lot of women are worse off than 50 years ago?

[Tsort]

A certain type of person is nostalgic for the old days when ‘men were men, and women were women’. I am not. However, it must be noted that at the time when women were expected to be docile acquiescent homemakers, men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon. Not for me, but a fair division of labour.

Now, we have a generation of women who ‘pay their way’, go Dutch and refuse to let men pay for them as they don’t want to be indebted. Grand.

But, these same women also do the lion’s share of housework, because ‘men don’t see it’ and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

So, women are now shouldering some of the traditionally male burdens while the traditional female burdens have remained firmly in place. How is this an improvement for women? And why do so many tolerate it? This is a profound misunderstanding of feminism and it hurts so many of us.

@RosesAndHellebores lucky you, but that was not my mother’s experience.

I remember 50 years ago really well, my DS1 was a toddler, DH was working, I was working, I paid my way, probably did more than my share at home but he worked very long hours, I just worked 40 hrs a week.

I didn't have a washing machine, dish washer, tumble dryer, central heating, a car. No way do I want to go back although I'd quite like to be 20 again.

Mine did swimming, cubs, brownies, judo, tennis, football, tennis, skating, dancing, music, not sure how much more you think I should have been doing with particular as we didn't have a car so lots of bus rides and long walks to activities.

and shoulder the emotional labour because ‘that’s just the way men are’.

Yeah, but that stereotype isn't really doing men any favours either when you consider suicide is the principle cause of death for men under 50. If anything, they suffer much worse from it.

I'm not sure things were better 50 years ago, but nowadays cosmetic surgery and airbrushed images etc are much more prevalent. Coupled with a much higher number of fat women in the population that's a recipe for unhappiness.

A big difference for women in unhappy marriages is the possibility of getting a divorce. Until it was even if they left their husband things were hard. A woman I worked with had been abandoned by her husband when pregnant, and there was no statutory maternity pay. Her boss told her when she could start maternity leave a d when she had to come back, no maternity pay. Not all families took the attitude that women should stay with a violent man though, my great aunt returned home to her father while pregnant as her husband turned violent, no question that she should stay. And that was a very staunch catholic family, there was no question that she should stay: hard for her when her dad died when her son was about 6 but there were other family members around to help with childcare

She needed family members to help with childcare, because there wasn't much in the way of paid for childcare. I remember one summer my Mum organised childcare at the local church. I don't think it would be legal now, they just paid some local Mums cash in hand to watch us and run activities. It was so popular they ended up doing it every year.

You obviously were not an adult 50 years ago.
With domestic violence the popular saying at the time was - she made her bed so she can lie on it. Date rape simply meant a woman regretted the date. And children speaking up about sexual abuse were lying.

And single parents were very heavily stigmatised. It was the tail end of women still having their babies taken away from them and adopted out. It was extremely difficult for women to be a single parent.

@antelopevalley Have you read the thread at all? Even just used the ‘read OP’s comments’ function? As I think you’ll find this has all been discussed pretty thoroughly.

You appear to be having your own, entirely separate, conversation.

Left school in the 1980s and was paid less in my first job than the boys who left my school at the same time, along with all the other women. This was very common. As a 16 year old I was in no position to take my employer to a tribunal.

Hi @Tsort I agree with you that a lot of women do > 50% domestic labour, but most women also don’t bear the financial responsibility men do as typically women are the second income in a family. Having the freedom to earn less may mean women can do less demanding roles - part time, closer to home, less work travel etc. I am 100% feminist but just because women mostly now do paid work doesn’t mean their paid work is equivalent effort to men’s. Of course, it’s chicken and egg about whether it’s the domestic responsibility that reduces women’s earning power, or do women reduce their own earning power because the want to do most domestic things?

• One third of British working mothers are main breadwinners in their homes.
• 3 in 10 female partners in heterosexual relationships earn as much or more than their male partner.
• 72.2% of women in the U.K. work full time. They aren’t earning less than men because they are working less than men, they are earning less because female labour - particularly unskilled labour - is paid less (there are countless studies on this). The notion of ‘equivalent effort’ is nonsensical. You think men get paid more because they ‘deserve’ it?
• Despite all this, in average, British women do 20 hours more housework than British men every week. The amount of time they spend on domestic duties actually rises of they are the breadwinner.

So, no, this isn’t a nation of women being supported by men whilst they work part time and pick up the domestic slack as a result. This is a nation of women who work full time and do the bulk of domestic labour.

Where are those figures from? Particularly the 11 minutes one?

That suggests there are 47,781 murders a year. Is that a global figure?

In the UK last year there were 594 murders,
total, of any kind.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2021

I agree on the whole things are better now. The thing is that’s very specific and will vary person to person. My mum is in her 70s now and was 30 when she had kids so was entering the workforce 50 years ago

If I compare myself with her

we both drive
we both have a degree and prof qualifications
I’m a project manager and she was a science teacher and eventually department head so both had a profession
I have my own money, my own pension, my own investments as did she
I have a washing machine, a dishwasher a freezer etc. She was the first person in her circle of friends to get a dishwasher and was told they would never catch on.
I've travelled extensively, she had travelled a bit less but been all over Europe and to New Zealand, Asia and North America so still would say well travelled
I eat out, she did too from when she was quite young

I am married with two daughter, our own home, flexibility to go out when I want as I live with another grown up and we take turns doing stuff alone with kids so other can have time to themselves. OH off cycling this weekend and I’m off to a day long ice dip sauna experience in a couple of weeks

She is married, had 2 children and a husband who always shared the household jobs. Though he was forever buggering off to do sports at the weekend he did cover 100% of days me and my brother were off due to voting happening at school, staff training days and illness as they wanted to ensure mum never looked unprofessional at work.

In some ways things were harder for my mum. She was definitely judged going back to work (first woman at her school that did), she got rubbish maternity leave compared to me and she paid most of her salary in childcare the year my brother and I were both pre schoolers. On the other hand having two professional incomes when it was a rarity rather than an expectation meant she was very well off and she’s a much more balanced load with my dad on the home front than the majority of women her age.

If I go back another generation my grandmother didn’t have a degree but she also worked. She was a sergeant in the ATF during the war and then did logistics management for the navy in Malta when my grandfather was stationed there and then worked in marketing. She earned more than my grandfather. My dad’s mum was a housewife to a tennant farmer but had a degree from Oxford (her mother was the mistress of some landowner in Cumbria and he paid for my grandmother to go. She was by all accounts super bright but I don’t remember her well as she died when I was just little). She wasn’t so happy from what family have said and it’s noteable that all her daughters (who would be in their 80s/90s now) had professional jobs due to her encouragement and all her sons did housework.

i think my family are a bit of an anomaly to be honest

Links already in comments, but will repeat them:

www.unodc.org/unodc/frontpage/2021/November/unodc-research_-2020-saw-every-11-minutes-a-woman-or-girl-being-killed-by-someone-in-their-family.html

www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/violence-against-women-femicide-census/

www.femicidecensus.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/010998-2020-Femicide-Report_V2.pdf

OP, I think you make some very valid points.

I don't think women are any happier these days, no. Life is more hectic, rushed and complicated for most. Women are faced with the stress and guilt of having to put their babies in childcare for long days and earlier than they would like. They are having to convince themselves that this is 'for the best.' But really they have no choice.

Just as 'having it all' invariably means 'doing it all (or certainly most of it)' for women, we are breeding a generation of men who think it's acceptable to 'have their cake and eat it' - ie. expect a wife to work to 'pay her share,' but not do nearly as much as her in the domestic sphere (while claiming they do because they do more than their own fathers).

All in all, I would say life is 'different' for women today than say, in the 70s, but not necessarily 'better'

Yes sexual harassment can now be challenged more effectively which is a very positive step forward. But, I often think, that as women have gained more equality in the workplace and in the general sphere (and sexual harassment is more consistently challenged), porn has emerged as a reaction. Women did not have to deal with the impact of porn in the 70s (well, nowhere near to the same extent as today and not was it free online at the block of a button). There is a whole generation growing up thinking certain practices are normal, which would have been thought of as beyond appalling only 10/20 years ago.

Fwiw, I have a quite traditional marriage where he has always worked and I have not since we had kids. I don't think I will need to return to work ever now. Personally, we are happier with our own roles like that. I know it's not very feminist to say, but I would hate to have been juggling kids and work. This way, I can focus on the kids with no other worries. I feel very privileged because I know many men will not financially support their families these days, but mine sees this as totally normal and I respect him much more for that, as a man. Many couples seem to have separate finances these days which I can't even comprehend. If that's the new normal, well, thank god we missed that!

Fifty years ago, your husband could rape you with the impunity. There was no such thing as marital rape. There were still jobs that women had to give up if they got married. A woman's income was considered her husband;s for tax purposes. Finacial agreements, loans, hire-purchase etc usually needed a husband's permission. Contraception was in its infancy. Banks assumed the husband was the one in charge, and women often had to get their husband's permission to withdraw cash. Men rarely shared housework and childcare, though some did. I'm not saying everything is wonderful now, but women do have more legal rights to their own money, their own property, their independence, and very importantly, their bodies.

men were expected to foot the bill. They paid for dinner, sorted the mortgage and brought home the bacon.

For the majority of women 50 years ago, there was no mortgage, and no chance of ever getting one. There was certainly no dinners out on a regular basis.

Many women did work - e.g. my grandmother worked her whole life from the age of 14 in textile factories - for "pin money". In many cases, men had total control over how much of their wage they spent in the pub on payday, before tipping the rest up to their wives and expecting them to make it stretch.

30 years ago, my parents generation worked 7 days per week across multiple jobs to make ends meet.

When I look at my peers, with flexible working rights and expectation of equal pay, I appreciate how easy I have it compared to previous generations of women in my family.

I can see your point OP.

But I think it's sort of trumped by the fact that women today have the opportunity to work and support themselves in case they want to leave their husbands. I don't think that was as common 50 years ago

@Tsort If 3/10 women in heterosexual relationships earn more than their male partners, it is correct as I said that most working women in heterosexual partnerships are the second income.

The reasons why women earn less than men are complex and certainly include direct and indirect discrimination. However, they probably also include the fact that because women are less reliant on their incomes than men are, women are less likely to do some things which earn you more but have a significant downside eg long commute, anti social hours, extra projects to increase chance of promotion. My point was that these take time and effort and one reason, not the only reason, why women do more domestic labour may be to balance this within the partnership. I see @GetRichOrDieTrying and @Discovereads made similar points but you won’t engage. The q of why women earn less than men is really important but we need to consider what women do to themselves that causes this outcome as well as how women are discriminated against.

If 3/10 women in heterosexual relationships earn more than their male partners, it is correct as I said that most working women in heterosexual partnerships are the second income.

Did you read the rest of that comment? Do you want to ‘engage’ with what was said?

Additionally, there are circa 900 comments on this post, many of them by me. Have you read them? As all this has been addressed, multiple times, at some length.

@Tsort why the aggression? It’s interesting to debate