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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you think Putin will use nuclear weapons?

507 replies

colddayinhell · 21/09/2022 20:41

I'm getting very nervous about the ramping up of the war and Putin's calling up of 300,000 reservists. It feels like this is a major escalation. I know that any use of nuclear weapons would mean instant retaliation but it no longer feels like a MAD scenario as it almost feels now like he wants a scorched earth and has nothing to lose and doesn't care that it would destroy everything.

OP posts:
Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 09:57

colddayinhell · 21/09/2022 20:41

I'm getting very nervous about the ramping up of the war and Putin's calling up of 300,000 reservists. It feels like this is a major escalation. I know that any use of nuclear weapons would mean instant retaliation but it no longer feels like a MAD scenario as it almost feels now like he wants a scorched earth and has nothing to lose and doesn't care that it would destroy everything.

All depends on how he defines nuclear weapons. Vs what we presume the nuclear weapons to be.

Fladdermus · 09/10/2022 12:39

TrickorTreacle · 08/10/2022 22:48

@colddayinhell - the threat of a nuclear war was far greater in the 1980s than it is now. I remember seeing those "safety adverts" like instructing kids how to cross the road (green cross code) and "kids, say no to strangers". Except these ads were about what to do when a nuclear bomb has gone off near you. Also, there was that documentary-drama in 1984 called "Threads" which was the most terrifying thing I've seen on TV. It gave me a recurring nightmare.

The safety adverts you remember seeing in the 80s were never shown as part of any safety campaign. They were prepared in case a saftey campaign was needed and they were reported on, but the campaign was never needed so never used.

GonetoGround14 · 09/10/2022 15:29

zigahzigah · 09/10/2022 01:11

Great post

The bridge thing is a big humiliation for him. The problem is that if you try to avoid humiliation by threatening to do something, you then feel more humiliated if you back down from doing it. And if Putin is out on a limb, doing this for personal ego reasons and with no fear of death, he won't care about China or anyone else. China will stay out of it, so they won't be targeted by anyone.
Apparently he has called a top level military meeting in response to the bridge.

GonetoGround14 · 09/10/2022 15:30

We've also been told on here that there has been a decision by the Western powers not to respond to a nuclear attack with a nuclear attack. In which case, how will he immediately be wiped out? It's either one or the other. There is no good solution here.

Greenshake · 09/10/2022 15:31

GonetoGround14 · 09/10/2022 15:30

We've also been told on here that there has been a decision by the Western powers not to respond to a nuclear attack with a nuclear attack. In which case, how will he immediately be wiped out? It's either one or the other. There is no good solution here.

It’s way, way more complex than that.

GonetoGround14 · 09/10/2022 15:37

Can you teach us?

Greenshake · 09/10/2022 15:48

Have a look at one of the other far more informative and balanced threads on Mumsnet about Ukraine. There is one in particular that has been running for months and contains many knowledgeable posters. This current thread here has some absolute lunatics on it that seem to have alternative agendas.

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 09/10/2022 15:56

any NATO response will be dependent on what Russia actually does with a nuclear weapon.

There are many possible options for Putin - from detonating one high over the Black Sea as a show of force, to detonating one over Ukranian forces, to targetting Kiev, to throwing one onto a Western facility or city. Each of those variants would likely get a different response. The only one which I think would cause a NATO nuclear response would be an attack on a Western facility or city. Anything over Ukraine would likely receive a massive conventional response which would send Russia packing from Ukraine with haste.

notimagain · 09/10/2022 16:09

GonetoGround14 · 09/10/2022 15:30

We've also been told on here that there has been a decision by the Western powers not to respond to a nuclear attack with a nuclear attack. In which case, how will he immediately be wiped out? It's either one or the other. There is no good solution here.

As brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr , Greenshake and others have said it's more complicated than is being portrayed in some places.

A one off nuclear strike by one weapon by Russia does not mean there has to be an immediate return nuclear strike by the west.

US/NATO have had over six months to gather intelligence of all sorts via various methods as to the exact strength and disposition of Russian forces in Ukraine and elsewhere, and have the ordnance and methods of delivery to potentially and hopefully deliver as brrrrrrrr said "a massive conventional response which would send Russia packing from Ukraine with haste."

how will he immediately be wiped out

If by "he" you mean Putin is that actually the western powers stated and main intention?

I suspect most would settle for Ukraine's return to it's rightful owners and Russian armed forces reduced to a level where they don't present a threat to any neighbouring country for the next twenty or thirty years plus.

What the Russians do with their society and Putin is down to them.

Igotjelly · 09/10/2022 16:14

I suspect @GonetoGround14 is either being purposefully obtuse and scaremongering or simply doesn’t understand the complexities of geopolitics. We are not facing imminent nuclear annihilation and The picture in Moscow is much more complicated than Putin having called a meeting to discuss nukes 🙄

vera99 · 09/10/2022 17:29

This a good article from Dominic Lawson who has a Ukrainian guest called Vera ! In full as it is behind a paywall.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putin-wont-use-nukes-comment-war-ukraine-russia-sh33cjk6b

My Ukrainian guest fears Armageddon

The nuclear threat feels real to people like Vera but won’t break their resolve
Dominic Lawson
Sunday October 09 2022, 12.01am BST, The Sunday Times

My main job over the past few days has been to reassure Vera. She is the Ukrainian woman who, with her ten-year-old son, has been living with us for the past two months. At the start of last week her husband, still in Kyiv, told her the city council had begun to distribute potassium iodide pills for use in evacuation centres. These pills, as he did not need to point out to her, are designed to help block the absorption of dangerously high doses of radiation.
This was a response to President Putin’s latest apparent threat to use nuclear weapons, in his rambling speech following the spurious referendums “Russifying” four Ukrainian regions: “Our country also has various means of destruction, and in some components more modern than those of the Nato countries. And if the territorial integrity of our country is threatened, we will certainly use all the means at our disposal to protect Russia and our people. It’s not a bluff.”

For Vera, despite her robust character, this was terrifying. She had fled to the west of the country, on the border with Slovakia, when Russian forces launched their original bombardment of Kyiv; and she sees a nuclear attack on the capital as something Putin is quite capable of. I should add that she is Russian-speaking, and her torment is increased by the fact that her close relatives in Russia are firm supporters of Putin.
To many of us in the safety of this country the idea the Russian president would risk nuclear Armageddon seems overwrought. But when I spoke to Orysia Lutsevych, head of Chatham House’s Ukraine Forum, she explained: “Ukrainians living in the central region of the country see Putin’s nuclear threat through the prism of the Chernobyl experience. They know what it is to flee radiation. It feels very real to them, not some dystopian fantasy. Putin understands this, which is why he thinks this threat is a way to make the Ukrainian people capitulate. His army bombing within hundreds of metres of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station is similarly designed to terrify.”

She added: “My daughter is in Ukraine and one night recently she told me that she didn’t want to fall asleep ‘because there may be no world tomorrow’.” This is the place to recall that the UK was one of the signatories of the 1994 Budapest memorandum, in which we, America and Russia pledged to respect the “independence and sovereignty in the existing borders” of Ukraine and to “refrain from the threat or use of force against” that country. That’s what it took to persuade Ukraine to give up the nuclear arsenal it had inherited after the dissolution of the USSR. Ukrainians now believe it was a catastrophic error to agree to that. But at least the military support recently given to them by the western signatories is in the spirit of the Budapest memorandum, even if that document contained no enforcement clause.

That’s not enough to reassure Vera, however. So I tried other ways of reducing her anxiety (and, to be frank, my own). I pointed out that Putin had, on the day he launched his “special military operation”, threatened the West that “whoever tries to hinder us [will face] consequences that you have never faced before in your history” and publicly ordered his chief of the general staff to put Russia’s “deterrent forces” on high alert. Since then the US in particular has massively “hindered” Russia with a supply of the most advanced weaponry, giving Ukraine a completely unforeseen superiority in artillery. Yet Putin did not carry out his threat.

I also pointed out to Vera that Putin’s recent renewal of this warning needed to be read in full. His speech was in fact about a Russian response to an alleged western nuclear threat: “Nuclear blackmail also came into play. We are talking ... about the statements of some high-ranking representatives of the leading Nato states about the possibility and admissibility of using weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons, against Russia.” It was after this remark that he made his own threat (“I want to remind you that our country also has various means of destruction ...”). In other words, this was a threatened retaliation to something that, actually, isn’t happening.
It is true that Russian military doctrine, as set out two years ago by Putin in a public executive order, allows first use of nuclear weapons if conventional attacks on Russia create a situation in which “the very existence of the state is in jeopardy”. Now that Kyiv’s forces have recaptured part of the Ukrainian areas Putin farcically declared to be “permanently” part of Russia after those so-called referendums, perhaps the president might claim he has the right under Russian law to, for example, employ tactical battlefield nuclear weapons against Ukrainian troops.

But as the military author and former Royal Navy officer Lewis Page recently pointed out, the Russian president’s “nuclear briefcase, the ‘Cheget’, is not directly hooked up to any nukes. Its function is to confirm that attack orders have been issued by the president. The president’s Cheget-authenticated orders pass to the Russian general staff, the high command of the Russian armed forces, who then direct action by nuclear weapons units. Putin needs agreement from the general staff to carry out any nuclear strike.”
My suspicion is that the Russian general staff are not just profoundly disillusioned with Putin; they will also have heard the former CIA chief General David Petraeus say that if Russia used nuclear weapons in Ukraine, the US would “take out every Russian conventional force that we can see and identify on the battlefield in Ukraine and also in Crimea and every ship in the Black Sea”. In other words, the general staff know that Russia — and her military — would face a more existential threat if they obeyed a “Cheget” order from Putin than if they refused to carry it out.

It seemed to reassure Vera when I said all this. But then early on Friday morning she was worried all over again, having heard the news that President Biden had warned that the world could face “Armageddon” if Putin used a tactical nuclear weapon to try to turn the tide of the war in Ukraine.
So I said to Vera, “This is not a warning to Ukraine to cease her military counterattack. It is the opposite: a message to the Russian people, people like your relatives, that they will be at risk as never before if their president uses nuclear force against Kyiv. And they will get the point.”
That did seem to help; and besides, as Vera made very clear to me, for all her fears, she does not want Ukraine to concede an inch in its fight to repel Putin’s chaotic but cruel military machine. She wants to return to a free country.

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 17:56

As a question, what would happen if the west simply took out Moscow ?

NoMichaelNo · 09/10/2022 17:59

GonetoGround14 · 09/10/2022 15:29

The bridge thing is a big humiliation for him. The problem is that if you try to avoid humiliation by threatening to do something, you then feel more humiliated if you back down from doing it. And if Putin is out on a limb, doing this for personal ego reasons and with no fear of death, he won't care about China or anyone else. China will stay out of it, so they won't be targeted by anyone.
Apparently he has called a top level military meeting in response to the bridge.

He holds these meetings every week.

Greenshake · 09/10/2022 17:59

You mean right now? Or as a response to a nuclear attack on Ukraine?

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 18:07

Greenshake · 09/10/2022 17:59

You mean right now? Or as a response to a nuclear attack on Ukraine?

Basically soon as we could position our forces, unless we used missiles ?

NoMichaelNo · 09/10/2022 18:09

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 18:07

Basically soon as we could position our forces, unless we used missiles ?

It would start WW3 immediately.

vera99 · 09/10/2022 18:10

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 17:56

As a question, what would happen if the west simply took out Moscow ?

That will never happen and just imagine the millions that would die - that would be a prelude to nuclear annihilation. There is some evidence that the Soviets built a doomsday machine that could initiate if the command and control systems went down and there was seismic and radioactive evidence of a pre-emptive attack. Nobody serious is saying that anything remotely like that is on the table.

www.wired.com/2009/09/mf-deadhand/?currentPage=all

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 18:10

NoMichaelNo · 09/10/2022 18:09

It would start WW3 immediately.

Maybe, if it's heading that way, we may as well be first ?

NoMichaelNo · 09/10/2022 18:11

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 18:10

Maybe, if it's heading that way, we may as well be first ?

No, just no.

MagicFox · 09/10/2022 18:13

That's the most irresponsible thing I've seen written down since this whole thing started. Crazy talk

vera99 · 09/10/2022 18:13

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 18:10

Maybe, if it's heading that way, we may as well be first ?

Crazy talk - if it did happen this was the 1970s public information film might come in helpful!

Igotjelly · 09/10/2022 18:16

This thread is literally defending into scaremongering drivel, it’s totally irresponsible.

Greenshake · 09/10/2022 18:20

Igotjelly · 09/10/2022 18:16

This thread is literally defending into scaremongering drivel, it’s totally irresponsible.

Agreed. Suggestions of a pre-empty strike on Moscow are baseless, ridiculous and quite frankly, disgusting. This would mean WWIII without any shadow of a doubt and millions of people would die. WHY would anyone even consider that? We are trying to stop escalation, not dive in with gusto. I can only presume that @Hawkins001 is attempting to be funny or really lacks even basic understanding of the world we live in.

Hawkins001 · 09/10/2022 18:21

vera99 · 09/10/2022 18:13

Crazy talk - if it did happen this was the 1970s public information film might come in helpful!

I'm not suggesting our nukes, they would be weapons of last resort, although it would be an intriguing game plan, if our generals gave the missiles green light on being ready to launch.

I was thinking more along the lines of a conventional, number of troops from an air assault with the objective of taking out or capturing Putin.

Greenshake · 09/10/2022 18:22

@Hawkins001 it is not for us to deal with Putin. It is for the Russian people. We CANNOT just start “taking out” world leaders. This isn’t a Bond film.

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