Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Adnan Syed is released!

273 replies

Squisita · 20/09/2022 10:54

Adnan Syed was yesterday released from jail, after a judge ruled that the state violated its obligation to share evidence with the defence that would have helped his case.

Having listened to the Serial podcast about the case, I think this was the right decision and it's come 22 years too late. Based on the evidence, Adnan should have been acquitted.

I hope this now opens the path to finding Hae Min Lee's real killer.

OP posts:
AryaStarkWolf · 21/09/2022 16:30

MsFizz · 21/09/2022 16:25

For other true crime junkies, I also recommend the podcast "Black Hands" which details the infamous massacre of an entire family in Dunedin, NZ and subsequent conviction of the only surviving member of the family, David Bain.

Like serial, there was a huge groundswell of public support whipped up in support of David Bain (although no podcast, just led by some key champions of Bain). As a consequence, David was released and for a time he received quite widespread support. Although I think the tide started to turn as people actually learnt more of the actual facts, and people started to realise he is actually dodgy as fuck.

Thanks will definitely check that one out plus was there a Podcast for the other case mentioned Darlie Routier?

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 16:32

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 16:24

It isn’t true to say there is “no evidence”. The quality of that evidence may be up for debate, but when someone says they helped him bury the body - that is evidence. The fact Jay is in inconsistent witness doesn’t change the fact his oral evidence is evidence.

the existence of evidence, and whether that evidence is reliable or not, are not the same issue.

Depends on the standard of justice I guess. My understanding is that in most US states, evidence such as Jay’s has to be corroborated/meet a legal standard for it to be considered credible. otherwise literally any random unfounded accusation could be claimed to be criminal evidence, and it isn’t.

Happy to be corrected on that if it’s not the case.

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 16:45

I agree Jay’s evidence isn’t credible evidence. He’s changed his timeline plenty of times. It’s still evidence. A technicality perhaps but in terms of a retrial, there is evidence to consider.

Is it your belief then that Jay is part of a police conspiracy to set Adnan up and Jay had no involvement at all? Do you think he’s intelligent enough to have come under all this pressure and scrutiny and not cracked? I’m not sure.

Unlike you I am highly suspicious of Adnan claiming he remembers nothing. I think I remember he was called that evening to ask if he knew where she was by a police officer. Plenty of other people in the case were able to remember when questioned what their movements were that day. I think it’s more likely he didn’t want to implicate himself by giving an untruthful answer they could disprove (as he didn’t know what evidence they had), and thought the safest way was to give himself a clean slate and claim not to remember. Obviously you can’t convict on that but it makes him less credible, not more, in my opinion.

BaileySharp · 21/09/2022 16:50

I hope the truth will become clear. At the moment it isnt. Part of me wants him to be innocent but then that's also bad because it means someone's got away with it all this time. For them to release him if they do another trial the evidence must be pretty clear (I hope!)

iloveeverykindofcat · 21/09/2022 16:54

@AryaStarkWolf I've mostly read stuff about Routier but Crime Junkie did a two part special on the case. I don't love the tone - it's a bit sensationalist - but it does a good job of showing you the (pretty mystifying) evidence on both sides.

AryaStarkWolf · 21/09/2022 16:56

iloveeverykindofcat · 21/09/2022 16:54

@AryaStarkWolf I've mostly read stuff about Routier but Crime Junkie did a two part special on the case. I don't love the tone - it's a bit sensationalist - but it does a good job of showing you the (pretty mystifying) evidence on both sides.

Thanks for that, I'll probably listen to that first then and no doubt it will inspire me to read more about it!

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 17:22

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 16:45

I agree Jay’s evidence isn’t credible evidence. He’s changed his timeline plenty of times. It’s still evidence. A technicality perhaps but in terms of a retrial, there is evidence to consider.

Is it your belief then that Jay is part of a police conspiracy to set Adnan up and Jay had no involvement at all? Do you think he’s intelligent enough to have come under all this pressure and scrutiny and not cracked? I’m not sure.

Unlike you I am highly suspicious of Adnan claiming he remembers nothing. I think I remember he was called that evening to ask if he knew where she was by a police officer. Plenty of other people in the case were able to remember when questioned what their movements were that day. I think it’s more likely he didn’t want to implicate himself by giving an untruthful answer they could disprove (as he didn’t know what evidence they had), and thought the safest way was to give himself a clean slate and claim not to remember. Obviously you can’t convict on that but it makes him less credible, not more, in my opinion.

i guess we can dissect the semantics of credible evidence versus non-credible evidence (whatever that is) I’m not a legal expert so it would be pretty meaningless.

The reality is that it’s vanishingly unlikely any prosecutor is going to build a case around Jay’s ever-changing story (remember he can’t even decide where or when he apparently saw Hae’s body) so it’s probably irrelevant as to whether you or I consider it to be evidence.

With that in mind I’m happy with my statement that there’s no evidence against Adnan. I personally would only base an opinion on credible evidence that can be corroborated. Doing otherwise is exactly why wrongful convictions occur.

In terms of Jay not cracking - why would he? He’s hardly going to admit he lied under oath - he has too much to lose. However he has given at least 8 different accounts of that day - I assume seeing a body and burying it would be reasonably memorable but it seems it’s not enough for Jay to keep his story reasonably consistent - that’s much more in line with a fabrication than an actual memory. .

Tomatopasta · 21/09/2022 17:24

Does anybody know if the cell tower cover sheet was presented during the trial? It stated that either the incoming/outgoing calls could not be relied upon/inaccurate. Can’t quite remember. Or was this information something that came about in recent years?

Another good point was the lividity, I had forgotten about that. If the fixed frontal
lividity found on Hae hadn’t matched Jay’s story, I wonder what was said during the trial to explain this??

SK in the new Serial episode highlighted that all of the facts presented in the motion to vacate were available during 1999. Very disturbing!

Adnan’s case is just one of many. Very scary to think we rely upon these people to help put away criminals.

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 17:25

iloveeverykindofcat · 21/09/2022 16:54

@AryaStarkWolf I've mostly read stuff about Routier but Crime Junkie did a two part special on the case. I don't love the tone - it's a bit sensationalist - but it does a good job of showing you the (pretty mystifying) evidence on both sides.

Plus crime junkie has a horrible history of plaigiarism

we the jury covers both DR and AS.
mite run by the innocence project so is slanted in that direction, but is comprehensive in looking at the evidence.

for DR, southern fried true crime also has a 2-part episode that is (in my opinion) pretty slanted in the prosectution’s favour, but it’s helpful to listen to both sides.

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 17:30

Does anybody know if the cell tower cover sheet was presented during the trial? It stated that either the incoming/outgoing calls could not be relied upon/inaccurate. Can’t quite remember. Or was this information something that came about in recent years?

It wasn’t - Susan Simpson discovered it during the Undisclosed podcast investigation. It was another piece of evidence hidden by the prosecution. Since then all witnesses/experts that testified about the cell tower locations have recanted their evidence/stated it’s unreliable

ElspethTascioni · 21/09/2022 18:37

I think what @Cantanka says about Adnan remembering nothing being suspicious is right - it smacks of being very careful not to catch himself out. And I remember him being amazed that the timings given by the state (of him leaving school, picking up Hae and calling Jay from the Best Buy) we’re just about possible when Sarah Koenig tested it. I it making me think he knows this isn’t what happened, because he knows what did happen, and it wasn’t this.

But having listened to undisclosed, I’m also completely convinced that Jay has no idea at all what happened to Hae, and it Adnan did do it, we have no idea what actually happened. And whatever did happen, Adnan has served 23 years, that’s enough of a life sentence.

PicturesOfDogs · 21/09/2022 19:11

Is it right that he didn’t know she was missing for a week or so?
I thought he had spoken to her brother that evening, and the police?

I wouldn’t be able to tell you about a random day, but if it was the day my friend/ex went missing I’d remember, that’s not a normal day.The evidence is all over the place, Jays completely unreliable and it sounds like they thought it was him, and wanted to make it stick.

CallMeNutribullet · 21/09/2022 19:25

They won't retry Adnan. The prosecution has utterly demolished their own case. They've called Jay's evidence unreliable, the cell phone evidence unreliable, the investigating officer corrupt and pointed out two very strong other suspects.

This is almost unprecedented and the only reason I can think they'd debit is they're about to arrest someone else.

Original poster
Squisita · 21/09/2022 20:23

PicturesOfDogs · 21/09/2022 19:11

Is it right that he didn’t know she was missing for a week or so?
I thought he had spoken to her brother that evening, and the police?

I wouldn’t be able to tell you about a random day, but if it was the day my friend/ex went missing I’d remember, that’s not a normal day.The evidence is all over the place, Jays completely unreliable and it sounds like they thought it was him, and wanted to make it stick.

I think it’s worth saying here that none of Hae’s friends were initially worried by her disappearance. They all assumed she had gone to her father ‘s house as they knew she was unhappy at home.

OP posts:
FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 21:48

I find it fascinating that some posters are sure of guilt based on really nothing more than a 17 year old boy being unable to accurately recall what he did on an unremarkable (to him) day.

is that really enough to take away 23 years of someone’s life?

perhaps it’s not so surprising that so many wrongful convictions occur

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 21:49

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 21:48

I find it fascinating that some posters are sure of guilt based on really nothing more than a 17 year old boy being unable to accurately recall what he did on an unremarkable (to him) day.

is that really enough to take away 23 years of someone’s life?

perhaps it’s not so surprising that so many wrongful convictions occur

Who has said they are “sure of guilt” based on that?

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 21:50

CallMeNutribullet · 21/09/2022 19:25

They won't retry Adnan. The prosecution has utterly demolished their own case. They've called Jay's evidence unreliable, the cell phone evidence unreliable, the investigating officer corrupt and pointed out two very strong other suspects.

This is almost unprecedented and the only reason I can think they'd debit is they're about to arrest someone else.

Agree. I think they’ve finally tested the DNA samples and got a match to someone.

They ruled out Adnan’s DNA a few months ago

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 21:56

I think what @Cantanka says about Adnan remembering nothing being suspicious is right - it smacks of being very careful not to catch himself out. And I remember him being amazed that the timings given by the state (of him leaving school, picking up Hae and calling Jay from the Best Buy) we’re just about possible when Sarah Koenig tested it. I it making me think he knows this isn’t what happened, because he knows what did happen, and it wasn’t this.

i couldn’t see any other reason given in this post.

i’d be interested to hear other reasons though, and what the timeline methodology would be

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 21:57

I appreciate I assumed him knowing what happened was equivalent to him being guilty. I guess the poster could have been suggesting that he’s spent 23 years covering for someone. not sure that’s likely though

TheYearOfSmallThings · 21/09/2022 21:59

I believe Adnan probably did kill Hae. The thing I have always found most interesting is why Sarah Koenig started out with the assumption of his innocence - whether she was just in need of a story and had a tenuous personal connection this one, or whether she genuinely believes he did not kill Hae.

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 22:07

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 21:57

I appreciate I assumed him knowing what happened was equivalent to him being guilty. I guess the poster could have been suggesting that he’s spent 23 years covering for someone. not sure that’s likely though

I think it’s the use of “sure” of guilt. That poster did go on to say “if Adnan did kill her…” I always thought he is probably guilty but acknowledge that there wasn’t enough evidence for a conviction, and that “probably” isn’t enough. I have read so many threads on this case, mainly on Reddit, and I think most people who think he is guilty recognise the limitations of the evidence against him when it comes to actually convicting.

I very much hope the predictions on this thread are right and the prosecution have found DNA evidence to conclusively convict someone else. I don’t think they should or will retry Adnan, (and don’t think they would get a conviction anyway given the way the evidence has moved on). I would hate for this to go unsolved.

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 22:09

TheYearOfSmallThings · 21/09/2022 21:59

I believe Adnan probably did kill Hae. The thing I have always found most interesting is why Sarah Koenig started out with the assumption of his innocence - whether she was just in need of a story and had a tenuous personal connection this one, or whether she genuinely believes he did not kill Hae.

I think because that’s the legal standard. Presume innocent and then apply the evidence to reach a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
it would be odd to do it the other way and ‘proving’ innocence is pretty much impossible. You can generally only show that there’s an absence of evidence.

what is it that makes you think he’s guilty? (I know OP asked folk to give reasons already and it’s fine if you don’t want to but it’s interesting to see which things strike a chord)

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 22:09

TheYearOfSmallThings · 21/09/2022 21:59

I believe Adnan probably did kill Hae. The thing I have always found most interesting is why Sarah Koenig started out with the assumption of his innocence - whether she was just in need of a story and had a tenuous personal connection this one, or whether she genuinely believes he did not kill Hae.

I think Adnan’s family are pretty furious with Koenig as they think she portrayed him badly and misrepresented stuff. I don’t think they think she portrayed him as innocent at all.

Rabia has been tweeting about it tonight.

FurAndFeathers · 21/09/2022 22:11

Cantanka · 21/09/2022 22:07

I think it’s the use of “sure” of guilt. That poster did go on to say “if Adnan did kill her…” I always thought he is probably guilty but acknowledge that there wasn’t enough evidence for a conviction, and that “probably” isn’t enough. I have read so many threads on this case, mainly on Reddit, and I think most people who think he is guilty recognise the limitations of the evidence against him when it comes to actually convicting.

I very much hope the predictions on this thread are right and the prosecution have found DNA evidence to conclusively convict someone else. I don’t think they should or will retry Adnan, (and don’t think they would get a conviction anyway given the way the evidence has moved on). I would hate for this to go unsolved.

Show quote history

he knows what did happen, and it wasn’t this. seemed pretty definitive to me, but I don’t really want to get bogged down in another semantics discussion 😊

ElspethTascioni · 21/09/2022 23:17

@FurAndFeathers Oh I don’t think he should stay in jail, or have a conviction based on the evidence! Far from it. Just that on balance he looks guilty to me. But fortunately the standard of proof in criminal cases is not the balance of probabilities! It’s just idle speculation from me on the facts, not a belief that he ought to be behind bars.