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Original poster

Adnan Syed is released!

273 replies

Squisita · 20/09/2022 10:54

Adnan Syed was yesterday released from jail, after a judge ruled that the state violated its obligation to share evidence with the defence that would have helped his case.

Having listened to the Serial podcast about the case, I think this was the right decision and it's come 22 years too late. Based on the evidence, Adnan should have been acquitted.

I hope this now opens the path to finding Hae Min Lee's real killer.

OP posts:
PicturesOfDogs · 12/10/2022 08:35

yes, I read this yesterday, apparently it was due to the dna on Haes shoes?
Was there no other dna evidence, shoes just seem weird to me, because I can imagine traipsing around picking up all sorts.
I thought they had found dna under her fingernails, which would surely make more sense to use? (I might be making that up though?)

iloveeverykindofcat · 12/10/2022 09:01

I've always said I thought he was probably guilty but would still vote to acquit based on lack of evidence. Shows why jurors need to remember that.

ElspethTascioni · 12/10/2022 10:44

@PicturesOfDogs

the shoes weren’t found on her body, they were found in the trunk of her car, with her handbag - the supposition being that whoever murdered her out them there. Research into Touch DNA suggests that the most likely DNA to be found on an item, is the last person to handle it. So if Adnan’s DNA wasn’t on there (and nor was Hae’s) but they did find someone’s DNA on there, it really does seem to exclude Adnan. I just hope they have the identities of the DNA profiles they did find.

PicturesOfDogs · 12/10/2022 10:45

Might sound stupid, but I actually really struggle with the concept of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’.
I take it to mean a reasonable person (average Joe/member of jury) thinking what is ‘reasonable’ ie lots of circumstantial evidence could add up to ‘reasonably’ not having any doubt, however when jury’s are directed it seems to be along the lines of, if there is any doubt you must acquit.
’without a shadow of a doubt’ or ‘any doubt’ seems like a different/much higher bar to ‘reasonable doubt’ in my mind.

PicturesOfDogs · 12/10/2022 10:48

ElspethTascioni · 12/10/2022 10:44

@PicturesOfDogs

the shoes weren’t found on her body, they were found in the trunk of her car, with her handbag - the supposition being that whoever murdered her out them there. Research into Touch DNA suggests that the most likely DNA to be found on an item, is the last person to handle it. So if Adnan’s DNA wasn’t on there (and nor was Hae’s) but they did find someone’s DNA on there, it really does seem to exclude Adnan. I just hope they have the identities of the DNA profiles they did find.

Right, okay, thank you for that, that makes MUCH more sense!
I did listen to the serial podcast, but quite a few years ago now

risefromyourgrave · 12/10/2022 11:05

PicturesOfDogs · 12/10/2022 10:45

Might sound stupid, but I actually really struggle with the concept of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’.
I take it to mean a reasonable person (average Joe/member of jury) thinking what is ‘reasonable’ ie lots of circumstantial evidence could add up to ‘reasonably’ not having any doubt, however when jury’s are directed it seems to be along the lines of, if there is any doubt you must acquit.
’without a shadow of a doubt’ or ‘any doubt’ seems like a different/much higher bar to ‘reasonable doubt’ in my mind.

‘Beyond reasonable doubt’ got Casey Anthony cleared of murder, so it’s obviously something that needs clarification I feel.

PicturesOfDogs · 12/10/2022 11:24

Yes, I feel like a higher standard is expected in practice than what is described in law, but it might just be my misunderstanding.
As I said, any doubt is a very different thing to reasonable doubt to my mind.

AryaStarkWolf · 12/10/2022 11:45

iloveeverykindofcat · 12/10/2022 09:01

I've always said I thought he was probably guilty but would still vote to acquit based on lack of evidence. Shows why jurors need to remember that.

Yes me too. I feel bad for thinking he was guilty now though

AryaStarkWolf · 12/10/2022 11:46

Poor guy, a whole lifetime gone.

I hope they catch the actual killer though for Hae's families sake

ElspethTascioni · 12/10/2022 13:04

In English law at least, beyond a reasonable doubt is explained as being so that you are “sure” they did it. You do have to be certain. It’s a very high bar. The “reasonable” doubt comes down to the fact that any doubts must lead you to question whether the accused actually did it. It’s not better defined because it’s really bloody hard to define!

iloveeverykindofcat · 12/10/2022 14:22

Now I'm wondering whether Darlie Routier is innocent too. Someone said about Adnan on a podcast (forgot where) that if he's innocent he's the unluckiest man in the world, because it really, really, really looks like he did it. Well, same for Darlier Routier, with the added tragedy that it was her actual children.

ElspethTascioni · 12/10/2022 14:37

The bloody sock down the road would have prevented me from convicting Darlie Routier. That gives me enough doubt not to be sure.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 12/10/2022 14:39

iloveeverykindofcat · 12/10/2022 14:22

Now I'm wondering whether Darlie Routier is innocent too. Someone said about Adnan on a podcast (forgot where) that if he's innocent he's the unluckiest man in the world, because it really, really, really looks like he did it. Well, same for Darlier Routier, with the added tragedy that it was her actual children.

What actual evidence makes it look like he did it though? I've listened to Serial and Undisclosed and literally got no idea what actual hard evidence points to Adnan.

GlitterB0mb · 12/10/2022 14:43

iloveeverykindofcat · 12/10/2022 14:22

Now I'm wondering whether Darlie Routier is innocent too. Someone said about Adnan on a podcast (forgot where) that if he's innocent he's the unluckiest man in the world, because it really, really, really looks like he did it. Well, same for Darlier Routier, with the added tragedy that it was her actual children.

Serial framing Adnan as 'unlucky' is massively problematic. The cops and the prosecutors were massively corrupt in this case and others in Baltimore. There was fabricated evidence and Brady violations. There was a DA that refused to test the evidence because he knew that it would point in another direction.

GlitterB0mb · 12/10/2022 14:44

PicturesOfDogs · 12/10/2022 08:35

yes, I read this yesterday, apparently it was due to the dna on Haes shoes?
Was there no other dna evidence, shoes just seem weird to me, because I can imagine traipsing around picking up all sorts.
I thought they had found dna under her fingernails, which would surely make more sense to use? (I might be making that up though?)

There's evidence that Hae was dragged to the spot they left her. The co-mingled DNA suggests that the prep had help out there are two perps.

Halsall · 12/10/2022 22:50

because it really, really, really looks like he did it.

I'm genuinely curious about this too. After listening to Serial, I didn’t think he was guilty. After listening to Undisclosed, I was flabbergasted by how appallingly bad, intentionally misleading and just plain wrong the State's case was.

There were Jay's 7 different versions of what had happened (most of which could be disproved) - plus the fact that he was probably behind the anonymous Crimestoppers tip-off and collected the payment for it.

There wasn’t any credible physical or DNA evidence linking Adnan to the murder or the burial site. The cell-tower evidence was plain wrong. Asia McClain, who talked to him in the library at the time the State claimed he was killing Hae, with two other people present, was never called as an alibi witness due to the incompetence of Adnan's lawyer (so in that sense he definitely was unlucky).

I really can’t see where the big smoking gun is that shows he did it. Just about everything the State alleged can be disproved, or not be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

iloveeverykindofcat · 13/10/2022 06:45

There's no smoking gun really. I always said there wasn't enough evidence to convict, but I allowed myself to be swayed into thinking he was guilty because I don't like him. Classic error. Growing up in displaced Arab communities I knew a few too many young men (I know he's Pakistani) who played the good Muslim son at home, pillar of the community, apple of their parents' eye, led prayers at Mosque, and were actually pretty slimy and thought very little of women. Especially non-Muslim women. No doubt there's a Christian equivalent - the All American football star, for example. But I falsely believed I 'had his number', in the way we allow media to convince us we 'know' someone, when of course we don't know them at all.

Original poster
Squisita · 13/10/2022 07:53

because it really, really, really looks like he did it.

I find this curious too, as apart from Jay’s flawed testimony and the faulty cell phone tower information, there was no real evidence.

but I allowed myself to be swayed into thinking he was guilty because I don't like him.

It’s commendable that you’re honest about that. The prosecution played that card to the jury too I think, about him being a Muslim gone wrong.

Ironically it was Jay who was beating up his girlfriends and Adnan who was
helping Hae even after they broke up (fixing her car).

OP posts:
Halsall · 13/10/2022 07:58

I get what you’re saying @iloveeverykindofcat. I think if it’s possible to set aside the Pakistani/Muslim aspect (which the State played on very heavily indeed, and successfully), yes, what you had was a fairly typical American teen who wasn’t telling his parents everything about his love-life and was keen on girls. I don’t think that’s too unusual really. It’s probably true of vast numbers of 17 year old boys navigating the transition to adulthood.

iloveeverykindofcat · 13/10/2022 08:15

@ElspethTascioni probably same, I wouldn't convict her, but have you read the foresnic evidence from the crime scene? Its pretty damning. Also, if she's innocent...a stranger broke in, killed the children, attempted to kill her, stole none of the significant valuables lying around and....left. Okay? I guess its possible? I've just never heard of anything like it. Even Richard Ramirez stole whatever he could and he was a sociopath. I've heard a theory it was a hit (set up by the husband? Insurance money?) but that would be the worst hit I ever heard of. A hitman would surely have just shot them? It makes no sense.

Hotcrossbunnowplease · 13/10/2022 13:30

Has anyone pieced together how Adnan/Jay’s day would look if they had nothing to do with it? I see so much about what they did relating to Jay’s narrative but say for speculations sake neither of them had anything to do with the crime at all.. how did the day run?

Halsall · 13/10/2022 14:37

They did this on the Undisclosed podcast, @Hotcrossbunnowplease - there were in-depth episodes called Adnan's Day, Hae's Day and Jay's Day. Way back in 2015, but still available to listen to.

lightenuplantern · 01/08/2023 12:44

I do not believe that his release is praiseworthy and consider it appropriate that he be re-incarcerated. If you found Serial to be compelling, I would strongly suggest that you listen to The Prosecutors podcast, as they are currently examining the case and are incredibly reasonable and impartial, given that they both work as prosecutors.

Popsicle42 · 01/08/2023 13:03

If they work as prosecutors, they are highly unlikely to be impartial.

BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 01/08/2023 13:14

lightenuplantern · 01/08/2023 12:44

I do not believe that his release is praiseworthy and consider it appropriate that he be re-incarcerated. If you found Serial to be compelling, I would strongly suggest that you listen to The Prosecutors podcast, as they are currently examining the case and are incredibly reasonable and impartial, given that they both work as prosecutors.

There was no way he should have been found guilty, simply for the fact that there was doubt over his guilt. Any doubt should mean a not guilty verdict is returned. The whole thing was ridiculous.