You're not working class!

[Womeninthesequel]

Ridiculous conversation with an NCT acquaintance - we as a group were discussing the cost of living crisis and it was mentioned that working class families are really going to struggle. He scoffed and said "not all working class families, we're going to be fine." To which I goggled, and said "you're not working class!" He looked cross and said "of course I am, I grew up on a council estate, my dad was a binman."

This is true, he definitely is from a working class background, but he went to university, then med school, is now a senior surgeon doing mainly private practice, he makes six figures (which he'll tell anyone who walks past him) and his house is currently on the market for £1.2mil! He's not working class! This was pointed out to him (not by me) and he was vastly offended. He seems to genuinely believe that his upbringing means he'll always be working class, but that's not right, right? Class isn't innate, is it?

He's a bit of a dick in general, but this has raised a wider conversation at home. DH is from a working class background and is now uni educated and a professional and feels he's now middle class, so is confused by the idea that he's not.

You can be working class and still earn a load of money, I think a lot of middle class families will struggle actually if they’ve overstretched on mortgages etc.

@carefullycourageous

I'm with you, there is huge structural inequality in this country, and not out to slow anything (in fact changing it is my passion and my career!).

We don't tackle racial inequality by making sweeping assumptions that someone from a particular ethnic minority "undoubtedly" has a lack of parental expectation, parents who can't help with schoolwork, and attended a poor school. It may or may not be more likely, but people who base their perceptions of individuals based on ethnicity, rather than individual circumstances, are a huge part of the problem of racial inequality. I think the above is fairly uncontroversial.

Now consider changing the words:

We don't tackle social inequality by making sweeping assumptions that someone from a particular social group "undoubtedly" has a lack of parental expectation, parents who can't help with schoolwork, and attended a poor school. It may or may not be more likely, but people who base their perceptions of individuals based on social group, rather than individual circumstances, are a huge part of the problem of social inequality.

I think that if we add into the mix that the definition of "working class" in this thread is "the opposite to middle class", we are making those assumptions about huge sections of the population, not just the most deprived.

Your DH is working class with a middle class life. Your children will be middle class.

The guy being a dick aside, I think it's not fair of you to define him as MC based on his income. I really think money and class are two different things.

I'm from a very much wc background and no matter how much money I had, I doubt I could ever be or feel mc. I studied at a top university and it felt quite brutal at times, to be honest, and made me very much aware of my class and class in general.

Ah, this made me chuckle!

I don't like it when people assume that working class people are poor and uneducated so I sort of see why he's saying he's still working class. It's a way of defending the working classes by not denying them iyswim. He sounds like a knob though 😆

Its very confusing.
I would say class is about values ( eg deffered gratification ) and behevours rather than money.
For example , where wd you put me .. ? Ex uni educated professional. Took early semi retirement. Now clean a few hours a week. We garden, read,walk, have parties. We have a 15 year old car. Own our own house, have low disposible income, ( thro choice now) and v few savings.
Our income is lower than 20k together.

How does this demonstrate being middle class? People insist the Beckhams are working class yet I’m reasonably sure they’ll have heard of brie and crudités. And does class only apply if you’re white? As I’m sure my Lebanese neighbour would put olives and hummus out on her buffet, and she’s working class by the MN agreed standards..

Your neighbour is exempt from the British class system simply by dint of being foreign!

If we met you we probably could tell you. However all you have shared is your work history which pretty much tells us nothing. Tell us what your parents did and how you grew up and people will be able to tell you.

Which is what baffles me. Considering almost a fifth of the UK population is foreign born and a significant further percentage will be second generation immigrants, doesn't this mean that class is totally irrelevant to an increasingly large section of the population?

Always has been!

I guarantee you, GUARANTEE you, that throughout his decades of training he will not have been allowed to forget his class for a moment.

I 100% believe this

His past is part of his story.

I'd bet he felt WC while training in comparison to his peers, also the status is added to acknowledge his hardworking life.

People will say "He is a wonderful doctor" "he came from nothing" climbed his way up from the bottom".

Constantly reminded of the past.

Like Gerry and Kate McCann.

The label is attached mainly from your betters. 🤣

I'm glad he still feels a connection to his life.

Possibly "undoubtedly" was a bit strong? But if his upbringing was as described (council house, bin man) and that's not just cherrypicking (e.g. his dad was a binman for three weeks when the surgeon was a toddler but a solicitor the rest of the time, the family chose to live in a council house though other options were available) then there will have been times when things were made more difficult for him by others because of his background.

Cambuslang is a mix. It's originally a very rough area that has had a few overpriced new build estates built in and around it.

Shitehole all round.

Cambuslang is a mix. It's originally a very rough area that has had a few overpriced new build estates built in and around it.
Aren't most city areas like this today.
One time tenements and flats in the cities were for the poor, now surrounded by luxury apartments and hotels with the locals in the middle.

Class is not all about money, OP. Working class people can be rich, and middles /uppers can be poor. Background, accent, etc, all play a part.

Not as simplistic as that, hence the many long-running class thread discussions.

Iguarantee you, GUARANTEE you, that throughout his decades of training he will not have been allowed to forget his class for a moment.

Also agreeing with this. If his accent and/or background, including his schooling and what his parents did, are not a 'fit' he will be deemed working class.

Some people are proud of their class heritage, whatever that might be, and good for them.

People being sad about this whole idea are mis-understanding I think - there's nothing wrong with being WC - in my case sure, we didn't have much money growing up, but neither did other people - I also wasn't shuffled off to boarding school or expected to wear scratchy clothes and be polite to visiting dignitaries, or attend umpteen after-school activities or whatever.

WC/MC/UC does correlate with money, but it's really more about cultural expectations - and I'm perfectly happy with my WC upbringing, and slowly getting comfortable in my slightly more MC environment now - but neither is better than the other, they're just different.

People being sad about this whole idea are mis-understanding I think - there's nothing wrong with being WC

I think it’s pretty clear that many people do think being middle class is superior to being working class, just by the supercilious descriptions of perceived “middle class values”: deferred gratification, valuing education, preferring books to TV, saving up rather than getting into debt to keep up appearances, not being materialistic; and the snarky responses to the poster who said she grew up working class but was now “firmly middle class”, which were to tell her “er, no, you really aren’t / I can tell just from reading your posts that you aren’t / everyone else will know it and be sniggering behind your back when you pretend you are” etc.

I used to think I might have moved into middle class until I met real middle classes and realised I didn’t quite fit.
I do value education, went to uni but that was immigrant family expectations.

@ComtesseDeSpair
It is irrelevant until you suddenly realise it's relevant, that there are people whose lives have been lived in circumstances and with cultural references that are completely different from yours, and you find out that they have assumptions about you that are based on cartoons in Punch, circa 1873.

@SnackSizeRaisin when I first started reading your post I thought you were being serious 😂

and the snarky responses to the poster who said she grew up working class but was now “firmly middle class”, which were to tell her “er, no, you really aren’t / I can tell just from reading your posts that you aren’t / everyone else will know it and be sniggering behind your back when you pretend you are” etc.

If you have a working class background you're unlikely to be seen as firmly middle class by many, however you see yourself. It's nothing to be ashamed of, being working class, so perhaps those comments were aimed at someone who was perceived to be just that.

I think to be firmly any class takes a couple of generations, and even then perhaps not.

Wealth and class can be separated. David Beckham is working class but very wealthy but your friend as a surgeon is highly educated and is definitely middle class but from a working class background.