To ask if this is really what the queen wanted??

[MyMourningIsSadderThanYours]

Hospital appointments cancelled, funerals delayed and food banks closed. Businesses adopting ridiculous measures to prove how much they loved the queen and are mourning her. I guess, the queen can't be held responsible for the stupidity of businesses such as center parcs but didn't the media say that the event of her passing and the subsequent period of mourning were carefully planned and had her stamp of approval?

However, if she was the kind of person who would have wanted someone's medical appointment to be cancelled just because of her then doesn't that mean that she wasn't really that nice a person? In other words if she was as altruistic and service minded as we would like to think she was wouldn't she have been horrified by this circus and by what is happening apparently for the sake of mourning her passing?

And if this circus wasn't her idea then don't you think that either the royal family or the government are milking the death of an apparently not just highly respected but also beloved person purely for their advantage? Are they not going down in your esteem?

Yabu: we have to mark this historical event in as dramatic a way as possible and show in clear terms that we are in fact mourning. Besides you are not just mistaken but also very disrespectful. Off with your head.

Yanbu: yes, the proportion that this event has taken on is very worrying and it's a shame that the royal family, businesses and large parts of the country are all playing along with this populist jingoism.

@carefullycourageous I'd agree people don't know where to pitch it. The last state funeral was Winston Churchill in 1965, that's nearly 60 years ago.
The one before that was the King in 1952.

The next one will be Charles.

Whatever you call it BH or National Day of Mourning I knew as soon as she died the schools would close for it.

That is really interesting.

I don't think it is fair to blame 'advisers' though.

This is one of the oddest things. 'Promotional activity' being paused. I genuinely don't understand the thinking behind this, and how not telling people about service provision is seen as a mark of respect. I wonder if it was intended to apply to upbeat celebratory type promotional events but has been misinterpreted.

Hospital cancelled my sons peadtirican appointment for Monday and guess when they rescheduled it for...?

30th JANUARY 2023!

It's a absolute disgrace. My son needs to see his doctor as his medication isn't working and is making him very unwell and all I'm getting from the hospital is "oh well we have extreme back logs right now we can't help it."

It's all backwards.

YANBU. What is the most frightening is that you can't seem to voice your opinion about it without being shut down and told "show some respect". The Queen is dead ffs. She doesn't care what we do!

I think its managed by the Government, the royal household will advise on some protocol but essentially its up to the government to set the process in motion.

Its an opportunity for UK to be center stage on the world scene and they're not going to play it down.

Instead of posting an anecdote, please demonstrate with evidence that all of this is the case.

None of this changes the reality that it IS the decision of employers themselves as opposed to the UK Government and Royal Family.

I don't think I've ever seen any evidence that the queen was overly concerned about poverty, inequality and poor health care amongst her subjects. Perhaps that's unfair, maybe she ranted about it behind closed doors and brought it up repeatedly with the PM each week but I suspect that part of being royalty is being basically fine with massive inequality and everyone having a preordained position in society.

Tbh being fine with inequality is something most of us are OK with on some fundamental level. If it wasn't so many people wouldn't be starving across the world.

@DownNative well I'm not about to post the Silver Command logs here, but is it so very hard to imagine that quite a lot of people who work for a large acute trust might have children not old enough to be left home alone? I'm not just talking doctors and nurses, but pathology, cleaners, porters, catering, linen - nothing can happen without these people.

And given that the NHS is currently in crisis anyway and with a rapidly diminishing workforce, how far do you think staff should be compelled/threatened to come in anyway, childcare or not? Quite the morale boost, that.

Who's asking you to post confidential information? Not I.

But there should be evidence of some description you could use to support your argument? Otherwise anyone can claim anything and expect it to be taken as fact. As it is, you're literally unable to establish anything to support your claims.

My point here is that further knowing is important rather than putting unsupported statements out. I'm not going validate anyone's Circular Reasoning Fallacies.

As for your final paragraph, that is a Strawman Argument Fallacy since I made no such assertion. It demonstrates you know full well the weakness of your original assertion so deflect to an argument I simply didn't make.

Could people really not mourn on a Sunday? Does peak disruption really add to it?

When King George died did places not close for the 10 days between the death and the funeral?
Theaters, sports, cinemas etc is it not those things she didn't want to stop from closing for a prolonged period?

I think the Queen, being a sensible and practical person, would have wanted her death to be mourned with appropriate dignity but without the interruption to the daily lives of the citizens who she gave up most of her life to serve. I can't believe she would have thought people's hospital appointments should be cancelled etc.

None of this has anything to do with the Queen as an individual, it is a combination of long-held protocol, a jittery establishment which wants as much pomp and circumstance as possible and a collective hysteria which has enveloped large parts of the populace through which a lot of them are channelling their anxieties about other things.

It's all becoming a bit tiring and I want to go to sleep now and wake up when its over.

Sorry @DownNative are you asking me to provide evidence that there are a large number of people working in the NHS that are between, say, 25 and 55 years old? Probably some staff survey data online somewhere, but I'm not going to go hunting for it as clearly your point is ridiculous. And apologies not to have provided any additional evidence to back up my assumption that 25 to 55 is the age range most likely to have childcare responsibilities - I could be way off there .

My final paragraph relates to what the 'choice' that you say NHS senior leaders have, is actually boiling down to in a lot of cases.

@Thepeopleversuswork people have a right to mourn on a day of national mourning. That includes hospital staff.

The issue with cancelling hospital appointments isn't so much the issue of cancelling them it the fact the NHS is so stretched that rescheduling means it can be months rather than being put back a week or two.

Staff and patients are also likely to run into issues with transportation if relying on public transport which has gone to a Sunday service and the issues of schools closing.

I have checked the leisure industry seemed to close for 7 days after King George, one day seems a reasonable compromise.

@Dinoteeth

People have a right to mourn, but it's qualified, not absolute, if its not someone they knew personally.

I don't accept that the right to mourn someone you've never met takes precedence over someone's right to have a potentially critical medical appointment if cancelling that appointment would potentially be deleterious to their health.

I also just don't accept that the NHS can't be practical about this and allow the people who really really want to go to the funeral/watch the funeral to go, while allowing those who are less troubled by the Queen's death to carry on with their jobs. Its the absolutist nature of it which is so silly.

The hospital here is running appointments as usual, they have said to call and rearrange if you want to change yours if you want to watch the funeral or because nurseries are shut can no longer attend etc though. It has been up to Trusts to manage how they approach it, as long as staff get the day in lieu if they aren't granted the day itself then its up to them.

YANBU. Although I’m not a royalist, I did “like” the queen and thought she did a tremendous job (if you can call it a job) during her reign. I’m west of Scotland Protestant so grew up with her image in British legion halls, working mens clubs and various other venues my parents frequented. Even as a young child, the Brownies were held in a hall with her portrait so I guess she was deeply embedded in my psyche as metaphorically watching over me.

My sadness at her death initially took me by surprise as I predicted it a few weeks before - I said to my husband I think she’s on the way out as with the RF resources, she could easily travel/move about, but they definitely don’t want her seen in public. I took that as a sign of her starting to fade away, so to speak.

on reflection, I think her passing triggered a lot of childhood/family memories (not all good!) and it occurred to me it really was the end of an era and I was getting older!!

I think the sensible thing would have been for businesses/organisations to offer staff who were willing to work more money to keep things going as much as possible- I would imagine lots of people would happily do that. The extra money could come from government for public services and from the business that would have earned during the day. Myself and DH are both health professionals and could have been rostered on so maybe that clouds my view.

YANBU circus was exactly the word I used the other day to describe this drawn out virtue signalling and sentimental nonsense. She was not a sentimental person and I think have a bit of a grimace on if she is watching all this.

YANBU circus was exactly the word I used the other day to describe this drawn out virtue signalling and sentimental nonsense

Calling people's grief a 'circus' says it all really...

It's plainly obvious I'm asking you to demonstrate with evidence that the NHS Trusts are unable to provide enough staff due to your claimed childcare issue, for example.

You asserting such without a shred of evidence is just as bad as someone asserting the exact opposite without a shred of evidence.

Both can be dismissed without evidence too.

No, your final paragraph deals with a Strawman Argument Fallacy and your new addition also relies on the False Dilemma Fallacy too. You're suggesting there's just two possibilities for NHS Trusts to choose from. Again, without a shred of evidence.

If you're not prepared, able or willing to support your assertions with evidence, it's nest not to make them in the first place.

"It's plainly obvious I'm asking you to demonstrate with evidence that the NHS Trusts are unable to provide enough staff due to your claimed childcare issue, for example."

But what evidence do you expect to be in the public domain at this point? It's literally all still being worked out as I write!

Then, quite frankly, I'd advise you not to make those kinds of assertions.

It does not necessarily follow that childcare issues are impacting NHS Trusts to the point they need to close. Especially since others have stated their Trusts aren't shut and still doing their scheduled appointments.

It's a bank holiday. Everything closes on a Sunday so it's the same.

@DownNative where have I said that NHS trusts are closed? Mine certainly isn't - all urgent and emergency care is running as it would for any bank holiday. What I'm saying/have said is that it's a planning nightmare that the NHS could do without at this short notice, and that it's likely that a large proportion of elective work will need to be stood down due to staffing issues (related primarily, but not only, to childcare).