who is being unreasonable? disabled person 'over sensitive'

[amazeandastonish]

Person A has multiple disabilities and asks if everyone in a group can do something as a reasonable adjustment.
Person B refuses to do so. Person A asks again and explains why adjustment is needed. Person B tells person A they are 'woke', 'over sensitive' and that they (person B) will not be 'dictated to' by someone who doesn't even work here.
Person A complains to me (D&I advisor) and head of HR (my manager).
Neither me, nor manager were present.
Person A is an external disability awareness trainer and the group are a group of staff we had asked them to train on disabilitiy awareness as we had identified a need for it (as you can see!).
We struggled to get sign ups - expecting 30 but only 10 signed up. All other 9 people were positive about the session content.
Head of HR thinks Person A should 'let it go' because we are paying them, they are meant to be teaching us right from wrong, so should have expected that reaction and just dealt with it.
Head of HR thinks Person A was rude to 'single someone out' although neither of us were there to witness it (cause we had 'other things to do' - I did protest!)
I think we should action this but as you can see, my job isn't an easy one!

YABU - the trainer should have expected this / dealt with it themselves
YANBU - the trainer was right to complain and we should do something

I can’t really describe myself without announcing to everyone that I’m a mixed race fat middle aged woman

Of course you can!
“I’m about 5’5, I’ve got dark hair and I’m wearing a blue jumper today.”

Job done.

This is a very good point

Did this person attend in some form of protest as they think it's ridiculous and 'woke'

Actually if an employee has an anxiety disability it could be a reasonable adjustment not to put them on the spot or ask them to speak in public.

True.

However someone that needed that type of reasonable adjustments would have either had HR tell the retainer beforehand in confidence, personally vina form or had a word privately beforehand.

They are very unlikely - if they have anxiety about speaking in front of a group - to have waited until they are asked to speak in front of a group to explain. On the basis that they can't do that.

There's a whole thread here explaining it!

Absolutely, I referred earlier to hidden disabilities and this applies to me, I can cope with various things but I would not be able to talk about my personal appearance in a room full of people without being affected, for various reasons that others on here also have stated they suffer from

Its incredible that this is not being recognised and acknowledged as something that is not appropriate. And until you're put in the position of that you wouldnt be walking around making people aware that its not appropriate for obvious reasons. Where is my protection at work?

It’s not for the employees to make reasonable adjustments for the employer. you’ve got it the wrong way round.

And neither of the things are reasonable adjustments anyway. There’s no unlawful conduct here nor any question of liability or loss. A trainer came to train people, they didn’t like how one of them behaved (we don’t know Bs side), they were paid and went on their way.

The fact remains that even if Person B had a very good reason for not wanting to describe herself, that was not an excuse to insult and berate the trainer.

Person B could have politely refused or excused herself from the room.

Person B is an idiot. Your Head of HR needs training, never mind the rest of you.

That’s the point though isn’t it. I can’t really describe myself without announcing to everyone that I’m a mixed race fat middle aged woman. I could make up that I’m a young Chinese man. Would that be better?

But you can.

I'd say I'm 5"7 with brown hair and blue eyes. I wouldn't explicitly say I'm white.

Why can't you say you're 5"6 with brown hair and blue eyes and not mention your race? Do you feel it's important to you to describe it? (Genuine question). Do you not feel comfortable leaving that out?

But it still remains the blind person won't have singled you out because they won't have been able to know!

Person B is a Grade A twat.

If they reported into me they'd be facing a disciplinary.

Why would it be appropriate to tell a visually impaired person you had brown hair or were wearing a blue jumper when presumably colour is pretty irrelevant to them?

I'd understand if the trainer had asked about people's knowledge/experience of disability; what they wanted to get out of the sessions etc.

Because when they see a blob with a blue jumper they'll know 'oh that's Debbie'

What is wrong with some of you?

Read the thread.

Some people have colour perception.

If they know Susie is wearing a red jumper they may be able to recognise susie by the colour of their top.

Even if they can't what they are doing is asking for a description for their mind so they are on a level playing field to everyone who isn't blind and can see them .

The fact some people think it's weird and giving out personal information is worrying. It's like people have forgotten those with sight can see them just to argue a point. (Typical MN!)

according to op:

« Person A (trainer) said they wanted to know appearance to know who they are talking to and get an equal experience, as sighted people woudl know what we all look like. »

i don’t see that is a reasonable adjustment in the context of a training session delivered by that person. It’s not their experience that’s important - they’re there to do a job.

I haven't read the full thing but I hope it has been pointed out that petting a guide dog while they are working is not only intrusive and distracting its also distressing for the dog. These dogs are highly trained but still dogs and have to try remain in working mode while being distracted. Its hard work and upsetting for them. They want to please but are conflicted as they also need to work. Absolutely shocked and disgusted at person b. What a complete twat. I hope she gets sacked. Arrogant idiot.

You have big problems in your workplace. You also need training and don't sound suited to the role, sorry.

@Paq

Well there you go - colour is not irrelevant to visually impaired people
Many people with visual impairments can discern different shaded, Many lose sight because of degenerative conditions and are fully aware of of colour.

And part of that job is to teach people about various disabilities and how people can be mindful and make adjustments for said disabilities

One way to teach that around those who are blind or visually impaired is to do exactly what they did and ask for descriptions

What is so hard for you to understand

I'm honestly baffled

It's like people asking why during a race awareness course they were asked what their race meant to them, or to describe their race in 5 words. It's part and parcel of the training itself

But why does it matter to their role as a disability trainer?

I would imagine the point was very obvious.

It was teaching people how to put everyone on a level playing field and be inclusive.

And trainer or trainee they are still entitled to be treated as human and with respect - the blindness shouldn't exclude them from that.

And the reason people need to be doing this is because it's so clear many others just do not even begin to understand - or want to

If they see a blob with a blue jumper then no need to tell them you’re wearing a blue jumper! They can see it. Otherwise no need.

@Paq

Jesus wept

As far as I can see there are three separate issues here.

1. Dog petting
2. Wanting a physical description
3. The rudeness.

The dog petting should have stopped immediately after being asked but it was not unreasonable for employee to start petting dog. The petting could actually have been a useful training tool.

The rudeness, should be deal with as a disciplinary.

Wanting a physical description is a completely unreasonable demand. I can't believe a poster upthread suggested a visually impaired customer could go into Tesco and ask a shelf stacker to describe themselves, and the employee should be disciplined for refusing!

@MsPincher

I'm starting to think some of you are on a really inappropriate wind up

It's not an unreasonable demand

It's perfectly normal and common when meeting F2F with blind or visually impaired people to do that

And is quite relevant to the subject matter of the training this person opted to attend

Mum of a severely visually impaired DC here.
Severely visually impaired enough to be registered blind at four weeks old, in fact.
My DC and I have endured a complete lack of understanding at times.
I want to echo what I think was the intention of the trainer (although I do think they could have prefaced their request to others to describe themselves by saying why they were asking) - to understand that something that most people take for granted (in this case the visual appearance of someone), but the trainer is unable to do. I hope that makes sense!
Person B clearly needs to be spoken to (and even disciplined if HR have protocols around this kind of behaviour). Their behaviour was totally unacceptable. As a manager, they should be upholding the values of the company, not sabotaging them.