who is being unreasonable? disabled person 'over sensitive'

[amazeandastonish]

Person A has multiple disabilities and asks if everyone in a group can do something as a reasonable adjustment.
Person B refuses to do so. Person A asks again and explains why adjustment is needed. Person B tells person A they are 'woke', 'over sensitive' and that they (person B) will not be 'dictated to' by someone who doesn't even work here.
Person A complains to me (D&I advisor) and head of HR (my manager).
Neither me, nor manager were present.
Person A is an external disability awareness trainer and the group are a group of staff we had asked them to train on disabilitiy awareness as we had identified a need for it (as you can see!).
We struggled to get sign ups - expecting 30 but only 10 signed up. All other 9 people were positive about the session content.
Head of HR thinks Person A should 'let it go' because we are paying them, they are meant to be teaching us right from wrong, so should have expected that reaction and just dealt with it.
Head of HR thinks Person A was rude to 'single someone out' although neither of us were there to witness it (cause we had 'other things to do' - I did protest!)
I think we should action this but as you can see, my job isn't an easy one!

YABU - the trainer should have expected this / dealt with it themselves
YANBU - the trainer was right to complain and we should do something

And back to my volunteer driver job. Ok for the middle aged blind men i drove to demand that a young woman like me, give them a physical description of myself and they have an absolute right to this information?

I've very, very glad they didn't actually demand this information while I was driving them.

@broodybadger in a hypothetical scenario where a visually impaired trainer did just say 'describe your appearance in a few words', would you think that was fine? Because I don't think it's hard to see that for someone with an immediately noticeable physical attribute that they're uncomfortable about (very overweight, acne, alopecia, large birthmark, deformity, etc) it forces them into choosing between a) stating "I'm fat/have acne/etc", which they could find very embarrassing, b) describing themselves without mentioning being fat/having acne/etc, or c) refusing to describe themselves at all, both of which would probably cause them to feel like everyone else is thinking "oh she doesn't want to describe her weight/acne/etc because she's self-conscious" - again, potentially very embarrassing. Obviously, sighted people are going to notice these things immediately on meeting the person but unless they're very rude they're unlikely to make it a point of conversation, so it's less acutely awkward.For the majority of the thread that was what everyone thought had happened because that's what the OP said had happened. Nothing to do with being unwilling to help visually impaired people do their job in general. Obviously asking for hair and clothing colour specifically, as was actually the case, is not an issue at all and I doubt anyone here thinks it is.

Sorry, that did have paragraphs before I hut post

@Kendodd In the example you have given a request for a description would not be reasonable.

In the OPs situation the trainer had some vision and asked people to describe their hair colour or clothing colour do they could distinguish them. A reasonable request.

I agree it was a reasonable request, and the trainer even had the sensitivity to add if people were comfortable to do so. Very different from demanding people describe themselves and have a right to be told. Many, many posters seem to think blind people have a 100% right to force people to do this with zero consideration or understanding why someone might not want to and failure to comply should be dealt with in a disciplinary.

Imo
Asking what colour people are wearing or hair colour, if they don't mind, completely reasonable.
Demanding a physical description of somebody's appearance, not ok.

I know many posters disagree and believe blind people have an absolute right to a physical description of people, even shop assistants in Tesco, they have made that very clear.

@timeofillusion, @BadNomad
I absolutely wasn’t trying to exclude autistic people with the suggestion that they notify the trainer in advance of any communication needs, and I have no idea how I’m supposed to have belittled autistic people in my post. A previous poster had mentioned that her autism would cause her difficulties in describing what she was wearing, which would set her apart from the other participants. I was only trying to think of a way to make life easier for her so that the trainer would know what her needs are but it seems this, too would set her apart from other participants. Just like the visually impaired trainer is set apart from the other participants by not having the visual information required to do her job properly.

Just like the visually impaired trainer is set apart from the other participants by not having the visual information required to do her job properly
How exactly was she prevented from doing her job properly?

Following your account of what others said actually happened.

Person B wants an actual rocket up their arse, as it appears does your HR department.

Person B singled themselves out for attention they did not like and found embarrassing by continuing to ignore the assistance dog handlers reasonable request to ignore the dog!

It is NOT appropriate to ignore that issue and raise it with the offender later privately, it has to be dealt with in the moment 'please don't do that - I have asked you NOT to do that, stop...' etc.

Asides from distracting the dog which could cause an accident, the training those dogs have costs thousands, retraining may be necessary if such incidents repeatedly occur, and that again costs money and takes time, meanwhile the handler has no dog!

The request to describe hair colour/clothing colour if people are ok to do so seems fine, I can't see an issue with that, it's not as if people are being forced to give detailed and accurated descriptions about every aspect of their appearance!

I'm a bit baffled that your company hasn't told the participants of the training that they have to engage with it. If someone refused to do a section of online training you wouldn't give them the credit for completing the course as they wouldn't have. Same goes for face to face training. Perhaps Person B needs to go back and engage with a disability trainer in order fulfil the company's expectations that all employees have to undertake the training - and perhaps that needs to be mandatory for all staff, like any other diversity training.

Yes I did @AssumingDirectControl and the second part is the type of thing that would be said as an introduction to the course attendees describing themselves. Why would you think people are quietly laughing because you omit something?

@NoSquirrels at the beginning of this little thread has hit the nail on the head.

This is all you needed to say. Yes you need to take action, a trainer with disabilities shouldn’t be ignored and mocked in such a way.

I am visually impaired and explained in a previous post on this thread, if I was training a group how much easier it would make my working day if I had a vague description of participants - top/hair colour. As I have some sight, having this information would help me to engage with participants better , which would mean a better experience for all concerned.

Thanks for your update @amazeandastonish .

How bizarre that B had to be asked several times to stop patting the dog. You’d think once would be enough.

We find with the guide dogs in our family, you do get the occasional person when out and about, who takes great delight in giving the dog a sneaky fuss while the owner hasn’t noticed. The person stays silent and the owner has no idea what’s happening and why their dog is distracted. It’s almost like these people get a thrill out of fussing the dog without the owner noticing. Maybe some sort of power/control thing. Often older men do this in our case.

Women will usually ask if they can fuss the dog and if it’s an appropriate time, the owner will do their best to say yes as they know how valuable it is to build positive relationships with the public.

They have a protected characteristic too so if asked to describe their hair could respond "for religious reasons I keep it covered and I'm not happy with disclosing that info"

I don't keep my hair covered for religious reasons. I've had alopecia since I was a teenager and would not want anyone asking me on a call to 'describe my hair'. I would probably be quite upset and embarrassed at being put on the spot, however unwittingly, in front of other people about this aspect of my physical appearance.

Person B was obviously being a dick about the dog and the way they expressed themselves more generally. But I have sympathy with people who are uncomfortable at this growing trend of being asked to give visual descriptions on calls.

But @Butchyrestingface that isn't what was said, people were asked to say their hair colour or clothing colour, so no need to mention hair type, hair style, length etc at all, or if you're all in black and so are several others you could mention shoe colour, hat colour, scarf colour.. lots of options.

At no point was it a full and detailed description, just an in person 'so that I can remember who I am talking to/have talked to' identifier.

Id not be happy if someone asked 'whats the most obvious feature about you so I can tell you from someone else' because I know most people would immediately think of my size and that upsets me... but if asked to tell you clothing colour or hair colour.. easy, after all I chose the colour I am wearing today, nothing embarrassing about that.

But @Butchyrestingface that isn't what was said, people were asked to say their hair colour or clothing colour, so no need to mention hair type, hair style, length etc at all, or if you're all in black and so are several others you could mention shoe colour, hat colour, scarf colour.. lots of options.

But people on this thread HAVE talked about the need to describe hair colour. And it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where if everyone else on a call has described their hair, then the person who HASN'T done so, will be on the receiving end of "oh, you didn't mention your hair - what colour is it?"

People with physical differences may just not want to talk - or think - about their appearance at all, especially in front of potential strangers - it can be quite a triggering subject.

"Don't be a dickhead. The law applies to you just as much as anyone else". I'd be tempted to send B off on a longer course on every aspect of equality law.

Most people have pointed out that you could comply with a request to describe yourself by using precisely the criteria actually requested here, i.e. colour of clothes or hair. You were ignoring that through the thread and are still doing so.

Seriously on what planet do you need to be to not know that you don't pet guide dogs.

You are in a law firm. Ignore your HR department and go to Head of Employment Department or the Managing Partner and let them know that their own HR Manager doesn't recognise disability discrimination!

Yes, and as I have said, if blind customer in Tesco's has said 'can you just tell me what colour you're wearing so I can follow you' no problem. Much more difficult to to misinterpret or make a young woman feel uncomfortable than saying 'describe yourself for me' wtf is the problem with blind people doing that instead? Why the absolute insistence any request for verbal information about personal appearance is fine and should be complied with regardless of how others feel?

@Johnnysgirl clearly you have never delivered training to a group of people.

Depends if B patted the dog initially and then stopped after realising this was a working dog. Insofar as declining to describe herself physically, absolutely OK. I would have asked the trainer what information she needed and offered a place description, i.e. I'm the second person on your left/I'm sitting at 2 o'clock.
If B was the only woman in the group, her comments that she was a woman and sounded like one 😉were factual and not woke.

If you were to say you were 5'4" that may not be of any use if you're seated.

Would the trainer have found this more helpful?

"I am a partially-blind white woman in my late 40s. I have thick purple glasses, a large purple headset and grey-blonde hair tied back in a ponytail.”

“I’m a white cis man, in my mid-50s. I’m tall, with greying dark curly hair. My pronouns are he / him.”

“I use they/them pronouns. I am a nonbinary East Asian person in my 20s. I have long dark hair and facial hair.”