who is being unreasonable? disabled person 'over sensitive'

[amazeandastonish]

Person A has multiple disabilities and asks if everyone in a group can do something as a reasonable adjustment.
Person B refuses to do so. Person A asks again and explains why adjustment is needed. Person B tells person A they are 'woke', 'over sensitive' and that they (person B) will not be 'dictated to' by someone who doesn't even work here.
Person A complains to me (D&I advisor) and head of HR (my manager).
Neither me, nor manager were present.
Person A is an external disability awareness trainer and the group are a group of staff we had asked them to train on disabilitiy awareness as we had identified a need for it (as you can see!).
We struggled to get sign ups - expecting 30 but only 10 signed up. All other 9 people were positive about the session content.
Head of HR thinks Person A should 'let it go' because we are paying them, they are meant to be teaching us right from wrong, so should have expected that reaction and just dealt with it.
Head of HR thinks Person A was rude to 'single someone out' although neither of us were there to witness it (cause we had 'other things to do' - I did protest!)
I think we should action this but as you can see, my job isn't an easy one!

YABU - the trainer should have expected this / dealt with it themselves
YANBU - the trainer was right to complain and we should do something

Both the requests were reasonable.

The Guide Dog is working and petting it sends the wrong message I.e. not working time.

The describe yourself is to help the trainer to recognise a person through their voice, the direction of their voice, possibly key features if they have some vision e.g. a red top, black hair etc. This then helps them to make sure everyone is following the training, answering questions, perhaps if they have some vision nodding or raising a hand.

As a law firm you need to emphasis any Employment Tribunal would consider these requests to be reasonable and would find in favour of the trainer.

Read the answers upthread about why this might be helpful to the trainer. I still don't understand on what basis you claim to know better about what may be helpful to a blind person than, um, a blind person. Nothing wrong with asking them politely to explain it, plenty wrong in saying "I just don't see how this could possibly make any difference to you."

And your entire scenario is irrelevant to OP's question anyway. If that were B's situation, they could very easily have found a polite way of saying no. But they chose to be rude and confrontational.

@Novum

Many of these comments are giving major all lives matter vibes

If you're not blind or visually impaired who the heck do you think you are to decide a request made by a blind or visually impaired person to make them feel more included in something is unreasonable

Ask why it's necessary if you really lack the imagination to understand why this is common sense - but to outright deny it's reasonability is really shitty

I'm half hoping these are trolls but a few I've seen on here for ages which is sad

And I would say 'no' politely.
I have said upthread that the rudeness is a separate issue and should be dealt with in a disciplinary.
Do you not understand how wanting someone to give them physical description of themselves could make someone very uncomfortable?

It’s definitely not gross misconduct even if thé trainers description was entirely accurate

@MsPincher

Have you seen person Bs employment contract?

You don’t get to override other peoples concerns just because you’ve decided that they must comply with your wishes. you also don’t get to demand everyone else does what you want because you know best. People are entitled to their own feelings and opinions whether or not they have a visual impairment.

many people here have already explained why they feel uncomfortable with the trainers behavior in some cases related to their own disabilities and protected characteristics. who the « heck do you think you are « to ignore and dismiss those concerns?

What do you think?

I also am uncomfortable with the describing yourself request.

it is something deeply personal and I think many people would find difficulty with it. Person B probably felt a bit attacked in front of colleagues then when the trainer persisted. she obviously didn’t explain her need for it very well but if she did and person b still didn’t want to comply then it should have been dropped. Personal A then should have moved on to another participant to show how the description would have helped them

how does person A know what disabilities person B or any other staff also have before demanding such a request? Person B may be on the autistic spectrum and really struggle to engage like that .

If you're not blind or visually impaired who the heck do you think you are to decide a request made by a blind or visually impaired person to make them feel more included in something is unreasonable

Well, two things.
If the request from a blind person is reasonable, i would argue that it may or not be depending on the circumstances. As I said upthread, I've only really known two blind people as a volunteer driver years ago. Both middle aged men, me a young woman. I don't think it reasonable for them to demand I give them a physical description of myself. I pick them up, lead them to the car, take them where they're going, lead them in. They don't need to pick me out of a crowd. Others might argue all requests by blind people for a physical description are reasonable and should be complied with.

Secondly, is it unreasonable for a person to refuse to give a physical description of themselves if they don't want to and should they be forced to do so.

It isn’t the case that a tribunal would find the « requests were reasonable ». Nor that they would ever be asked to do so - the trainer has not suffered any loss nor would they be able to claim any as a result of a failure to make a reasonable adjustment. It isn’t a reasonable adjustment case.

People can see I'm fat, short, greying frizzy hair, wrinkles, massive thighs and calves, saggy boobs and am usually the ugliest person in the room. Should I say that? Clearly it's a question which needs answering in a specific and sensitive way because anxiety issues also deserve reasonable adjustments.

Many, many people have explained that this demand would make them very uncomfortable, it's not a small number of people. I would be interested to know how the people who compiled with the demand felt about it, they may not have liked it either but didn't feel confident enough to refuse.

Why are people homing in on their weight/size..... I'm 5'7 with blonde hair and wearing a white top is all that's needed.

Maybe because that's the first thing that would come to mind and they couldn't think of anything else.

Then people need to be kinder to themselves.... Anxiety is shit, I suffer massively but have also learnt other people's adjustments will sometimes trump mine.

Its no different to stupid ice breakers on courses or team building events. I despise these too BTW

As a visually impaired person with blind family members, I am amazed that so many on this thread think a simple request for a vague description of one’s self is unreasonable.

I really hope those who would feel ‘uncomfortable’ sharing very basic information, identifiable by everyone else in the room, never have to experience visual impairment - what it’s like not to be able to give your colleague a quick wave across the room, to miss out on career opportunities by not seeing the right person or by making a mistake with who someone is. Especially when it’s a senior person, it’s really embarrassing. I have had personal comments about my impairment made at work by senior staff - I still remember what they said to me 10 years later. Not to mention the terrible IT - accessible IT often crashes and slows your machine down massively, another big disadvantage at work.

All my blind relatives have had sight and of course they know what colours are and picture what people look like in their heads.

I have diagnosed and medicated social anxiety too so I do understand that feeling of ‘uncomfortableness’ but I would urge posters to reconsider any reluctance to describe as engaging with this very basic request is such a simple way to be inclusive. Even just ‘I’m wearing a purple top and have flat shoes on’, nothing intimately personal. It makes things so much easier.

if you work in an office, maybe try closing your eyes at your desk for five minutes and have a think about what things would be like if you couldn’t see at work. Believe me, you’d have far more uncomfortable and embarrassing experiences on a daily basis than a fully sighted person.

Playing with someone's guide dog shouldn't need to fall under 'reasonable adjustment'. It falls under DBAD. Honestly, it's just basic human decency/common sense.

Asking people to describe their appearance in a group setting, without being warned beforehand? No.

Ask me to describe my appearance, and the first word that pops into my head is fat. I could maybe make a joke of that in a one-to-one scenario where I didn't feel so exposed, but I'd be humiliated at saying that in front of a group of co-workers.

Maybe there are other ways to describe me, but that's all I could come up with on the spot, and I'd feel trapped and uncomfortable, and even stupider at having to out how I was feeling to the group.

Many people have physical insecurities. I don't think it was a reasonable adjustment.

Person B is an absolute shitbag.

As someone with autism, I am extremely uncomfortable talking in group settings anyway, but also "please describe your appearance" is too open-ended for me. What is expected, where to start, when to stop, how much detail, what is appropriate, what is not appropriate, am I saying too much, am I talking too quietly etc. I probably would have left the room in a sweat!

It would have been better for the trainer to be more specific. "Please tell me your height/hair colour/eye colour/colour of top you are wearing". Or "if you're not comfortable answering this, just tell me your name and job role". Something like that. Disability awareness.

Person B did not handle this properly.

OK so maybe the trainer could have started himself..... Apparently I'm 5'8 with ginger hair and wearing a purple tie.....

Refusing to describe yourself is rude but I don’t think anything wrong with it. Person A has no authority over Person B in that regard.

But repetitive petting of the dog, property of Person A, is not on really.

Keep that information away from who? The only people who can’t immediately ascertain it are people with limited vision.

I’m finding all this ‘uncomfortable describing myself’ stuff to be plain ridiculous. I’m surprised you can all handle the normal challenges of life if describing your clothing colour and height is somehow triggering.

If they want to know your clothing colour ask that. Thats a different question to describe yourself. It's totally shit to describe people's insecurities as ridiculous. What a nasty thing to say. some people have real empathy deficits. It shows how much some people need mental health awareness training.

You are suggesting, because someone cannot hide characteristics from everyone, it is incumbent on them to be an active participant in their own victimisation by highlighting for everyone’s attention. I disagree that it’s appropriate to force people to do.