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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

republicans, over here!

603 replies

arghpleasestop · 09/09/2022 21:54

OK, it's been 24 hours now.

Can I say it yet?

Long live the king - any king! - you must be joking. How on earth can it be the 21st century and there is still a hereditary monarchy of 'special people with the right blood' who wear crowns, live in palaces and play a formal role in politics?

I can see from other threads that others feel upset and are following it all closely. This thread is not to deny those feelings and for sure Queen E worked hard shaking hands for a long time - but to say, WTF, bring on the republic please.

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 13/09/2022 06:52

Keep saying it on other threads. Look at Ireland. We could have an elected president with functions similar to the Irish one. Or the Indian one. Or the German one. We don't have to have an elected king/president like in France or the US.

OnlyEverAutumn · 13/09/2022 06:55

@Discovereads hilarious patronising nonsense. I know exactly what a constitutional monarchy consists of - I’ve studied politics all my life. I love the idea that because I’m not a fawning subject im too hard of thinking to understand what the monarchy is 🙄. Oh and the queen chose how much tax she paid - what an incredible privilege!

OnlyEverAutumn · 13/09/2022 06:56

@bellinisurge exactly - Ireland is a great example of what we could emulate here and have had some great presidents.

BookWorm45 · 13/09/2022 06:58

What a relief to have found this thread. Am about to look up the Republican movement in the UK and see about joining. Ruling by hereditary assumption is not the way I wish to live

cakeorwine · 13/09/2022 07:32

OnlyEverAutumn · 13/09/2022 06:56

@bellinisurge exactly - Ireland is a great example of what we could emulate here and have had some great presidents.

I expect that a lot of people just aren't aware of other models of having a Head of State and just know the American model.

The more other models are discussed, the more people might just think differently.

But the Royal PR machine is effective.

I do think it will implode itself though. Not externally.

Just as when Truman sailed away into the distance. I will be cheering them on when they do this.

cakeorwine · 13/09/2022 07:35

He (and all of we citizens) have the privilege to stand for election in order to acquire real political power, a privilege the Queen did not have

I know.

And they are like your little pets. There to put on show for you, to keep Britain interesting, to wear pretty clothes, to provide some gossip.

People like you keep them in this gilded cage.

Getagrip123 · 13/09/2022 11:11

You can't argue with a nation who apparently thinks that the death of this old lady prompted two rainbows to appear in the sky, and now this morning a photo of a "beam of light" shining down on her coffin on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh.

It's clearly a camera flare, blatantly.

This is the level of moronic forelock tugging that will ensure the monarchy survives for a while yet.
The reporting of the "love" Edinburgh had for her is complete crap. The vast majority of the crowds (as was even reported today) are not made up of Scottish people, but those who have come over wishing to avoid crowds in London, or those already here for the festival, or tourists who happened to be here, or those just out for a darn good gawk at the coffin and the "Royals".
It's forced narrative by the press.

I cannot fathom people bowing and curtseying as they pass the coffin. There is not a human on this planter I would bend my knee to.
Talk of her life of "service"?

To everyone I've asked, who trotted out this line, "what service? what did she actually do?", I get a blank stare and mumbles about her giving up her life to serve the people.

Was she not vastly rewarded for whatever "service" she gave?
Roll on a few weeks until all this fawning nonsense is over.

Getagrip123 · 13/09/2022 11:15

*planet

Kissingfrogs25 · 13/09/2022 11:17

You can't argue with a nation who apparently thinks that the death of this old lady prompted two rainbows to appear in the sky, and now this morning a photo of a "beam of light" shining down on her coffin on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh

I think you had to be there, the rainbows did actually appear and seem to be beaming out of the building, and people are just using a rainbow as a metaphysical symbol of how they were feeling at the time. I have been moved to tears by the groundswell of love in this country, and it has given me hope that underneath the sniping about brexit and politics we are essentially a thoroughly wonderful country with millions of decent people - that care.

I think it is all fantastic, and I don't expect it to end soon. I am looking forward to the coronation!

Brefugee · 13/09/2022 11:25

not a thread for you then, eh, @Kissingfrogs25 ?

Worriedaboutethics · 13/09/2022 11:29

@cakeorwine

exactly

it all should wait. Jeez and given the country is screwed by brexit and the tories do we need more stuff screwed up?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/09/2022 11:40

Brefugee · 13/09/2022 11:25

not a thread for you then, eh, @Kissingfrogs25 ?

Looks like 'Kissing Frogs' has the Windsor Princes well and truly summed up.

Kissingfrogs25 · 13/09/2022 11:54

Brefugee · 13/09/2022 11:25

not a thread for you then, eh, @Kissingfrogs25 ?

I think you will find as forum, all views are welcomed and respected 😊

TarasHarp55 · 13/09/2022 11:55

If I was Camilla I wouldn't be able to find anything attractive about Charles. His irritable nature combined with his inability to do the most simple tasks for himself would be a complete turn off. How unattractive he looked the way he carried on with those ink wells.He embarrassed himself with the eyes of the world looking on.

Getagrip123 · 13/09/2022 11:57

Kissingfrogs25 · 13/09/2022 11:54

I think you will find as forum, all views are welcomed and respected 😊

Not true.
Those dissenting voices in the first threads that appeared were told to get out of the threads, that they had no place in them and that their views were unacceptable.
Forced grieving or get out.
Joining a republican thread seems a bit odd if you disagree with the concept, if you don't mind me saying.

A bit like joining the Dog/pets forum and then saying you can't stand dogs.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/09/2022 12:04

The queen chose how much tax she paid - what an incredible privilege!

Like her ghastly son, she also did it "voluntarily" - don't forget that bit!!

If only all our arrangements with HMRC could be the same ...

TheWheeledAvenger · 13/09/2022 12:06

Agree with this whole thread.

Britain feels like North Korea right now.

Discovereads · 13/09/2022 12:14

OnlyEverAutumn · 13/09/2022 06:55

@Discovereads hilarious patronising nonsense. I know exactly what a constitutional monarchy consists of - I’ve studied politics all my life. I love the idea that because I’m not a fawning subject im too hard of thinking to understand what the monarchy is 🙄. Oh and the queen chose how much tax she paid - what an incredible privilege!

The only nonsense was you saying the monarch in this country has “unparalleled power and privilege”…when they don’t see, because of the constitution…you know that part of a constitutional monarchy what you are claiming to have “studied all your life” …I see no evidence of any study at all as you quite clearly think we have an absolute monarchy when we haven’t for over 800yrs. If a lifetime of studying has you this confused on the basic types of monarchies, well, perhaps you are a bit out of your depth 😑

MinnieMountain · 13/09/2022 12:16

Radio 4 is annoying me. Their “consumer programme” is on right now but they’re just asking for people’s memories of the queen.

Brefugee · 13/09/2022 12:25

I think you will find as forum, all views are welcomed and respected

beg to differ, @Kissingfrogs25 as other pp mentioned. Republicans are not welcome on the toadying threads and the same respect would be welcome here. Thanks.

countrygirl99 · 13/09/2022 12:30

Not only are republicans not welcome on the other threads, they get told to leave the country and not to let the door bang on the way out.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/09/2022 13:08

Discovereads · 13/09/2022 12:14

The only nonsense was you saying the monarch in this country has “unparalleled power and privilege”…when they don’t see, because of the constitution…you know that part of a constitutional monarchy what you are claiming to have “studied all your life” …I see no evidence of any study at all as you quite clearly think we have an absolute monarchy when we haven’t for over 800yrs. If a lifetime of studying has you this confused on the basic types of monarchies, well, perhaps you are a bit out of your depth 😑

This post is really embarrassing. It's this - not the first quoted portion by the previous poster - that has absolutely no grasp of nuance or understanding of the subtler manipulation of power. If anyone is 'out of their depth', it's the respondent.

Believe it or not, the distinction between constitutional and absolute monarchy isn't remotely hard to grasp. That's even in the absence of a written constriction. What is very evident, though, is that the protestation that the Windsors have only 'soft power' or, more frequently, are the claim that they have none at all, is propaganda put out by their slick PR machine. This is what they want people to think. And anyone with half a clue knows it isn't true.

The reality is nothing resembling the image. They do have power, a great deal of it, much more so than your average rich family. The received view that the monarch 'does what she's told by the PM' is something that can never be evidenced, because she (using her in the present tense for the moment) has a meeting with her each week, the contents of which we are not allowed to know. With such an audience comes many an opportunity to exert undue influence. And this is one of the many strange 'unwritten laws' surrounding Windsor protocol, not to mention the nebulous UK constitution that's precariously perched upon similar opaque constructs.

The taxation issue another case in point. The monarch pays, at an amount she thinks she will and which you're not allowed to know - having previously not contributed a bean in FORTY years on the throne - because she came under pressure to do so. It might be £10 PA and we'd be none the wiser. You don't know - for the very good reason that they and their highly elusive finances are shrouded under their exemption from the FOI Act.

Exemption from FOI. That, again, is a considerable power: some might say an abuse of power. It extends to every single member of that family, and is a privilege enjoyed by no other citizen of these islands. As for the crazy protestations elsewhere on the site that it makes little sense for a monarch to pay taxes to her/his 'own' treasury? Apparently it hasn't occurred to some that a system in which a single citizen holds the treasury is what's really wrong with this picture. Barmy or what?

There are myriad other examples. Former Minister Norman Baker elucidates very well the shady mechanisms by which the Queen and Charles were able to veto specific legislation that affected them in a way they don't like. And just ask citizens/tenants in Cornwall what they think to his handling of their wonderful county. Then there's the inordinate degree of control they're able to exert over the presentation of their image in the media - you can speculate for yourself as to why that's the case - or the serious damage their very powerful PR machine can do to anyone who crosses them.

The previous poster is quite right. The UK Monarch does have unparalleled power and control. And the fact that this is exerted insidiously and covertly rather than openly is even more a matter of concern than the reverse.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/09/2022 13:10

I forgot to mention that they're also apparently 'above' the law (despite the fact that some of their behaviour has been demonstrably lower than a snake's gonads and would have rendered any other UK citizen at best ostracized from polite company and at worst jailed. How remiss of me.

VivX · 13/09/2022 13:29

Discovereads · 13/09/2022 00:10

My point is not just that Rishi Sunak (and all MPs) have more power than the Queen…which they do..but also that it’s power she could never have because the royal family are literally prohibited from standing for election. He (and all of we citizens) have the privilege to stand for election in order to acquire real political power, a privilege the Queen did not have.

Did you know that unlike Rishi Sunak and his wife, the Queen had been paying income tax on all her income? The only exemption she gets for being Queen is from IHT on any of her privately owned assets going from her to the next monarch. Which really, isn’t that special as any of us could do the same by establishing a trust and then living for 7yrs….

Well, I knew someone was going to try and downplay the monarchy's privilege with "whataboutery"

Of course, they only own two castles personally, so yes, relative to a billionaire, they might feel hard done by.

I very much doubt that any of the royal family are interested in standing for parliament and exercising "real" political power. In any case, they don't need to, they can influence the laws they want to behind closed doors. This is why in addition to an IHT exemption, the monarch is exempt from various other laws including, somewhat inexplicably, exemptions from the race and sex discrimination laws.
That's definitely a level of privilege that nobody else has.

It simply isn't true that any of us could achieve the same effect as a sovereign-to-sovereign IHT exemption merely by "establishing a trust and then living for 7 years."

Incidentally, the queen only pays tax voluntarily, mainly as a result of public pressure. Part of the bargain was the sovereign-to-sovereign IHT exemption. I would hazard a guess that the tax she chose to pay is far less than the IHT exemption she received on her personal estate. But of course, we'll never know and her will is likely to be secret too.

Your arguments are still based on logical fallacies that boil down to the "whataboutery" and in some cases, just inaccuracies.

CathyorClaire · 13/09/2022 16:30

She's reputed to have saved some £20m in IHT after her extravagant mother died. Nearly a third of the £7m debt said profligate is said to have run up.

She's always breathlessly credited with paying off those debts as if she did so out of her own pocket.

Not a bad result in both PR and monetary terms...

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