To think skin colour matters WAY more than people like to admit

[daysayso]

I am involved in marketing campaigns - I won't say what because it's outing but let's say I recently worked on a campaign where the service being provided had absolutely nothing to do with race (so it wasn't makeup or hair for example).

Yet the vast majority that responded were people of colour (Same as the person featured in the ad) and it made me think how much your life chances are still dictated by your skin colour.

People like to consider race more than they like to admit even in spaces where it has nothing to do with anything, people just seem to feel more 'comfortable' with their own.

I felt for the first time in a long time my success will in part depend on my skin colour because for whatever reason the majority of white people that saw this ad decided it wasn't for them on the basis I'm someone of colour.

Please no arguments I'm looking for a mature conversation and if you find the topic sensitive you need not respond

Just looking for others experiences really

How so?

"I actually find the term ‘white privilege’ racist."

Ey up Nige

OK but I understand it is wrong to label people. If I referred to someone as black ( simply using black as an example) then I would be seen to be wrong /rude / racist. We hear all the time that people shouldn't be labelled, yet from reading this thread it appears (to me) that people who are not white, do in fact wish to be 'labelled' This is not easy is it

This is what I genuinely don't understand either. Of course people 'see' that somebody is a certain colour, in the same way they notice if they are tall or short, their hair colour, sex etc. And of course all rational people acknowledge that racism has existed throughout history, does still exist and is a nasty, shameful thing.

However, if you then say that you don't really care what colour people are - i.e. you are NOT a racist and you treat people as individuals instead of treating all black/Asian/white people the same way - you are told by some people that you SHOULD care and treat people with different skin colours differently and that you are naive/unpleasant/racist not to do so.

I truly don't understand why having a non-racist attitude and treating folk as individuals, according to their character, personality, behaviour or whatever and not as 'a black woman' or 'an Asian man' - whilst never denying that racism is still very much a current scourge on society - is actually considered racist.

The only takeaway I can get from that is that non-white people WANT to be treated differently because of their skin colour and thus considered victims of racism inherently (i.e. as a part of their own character), rather than as a result of their historic and current treatment by racists - which seems to me to almost be taking the blame away from the racists and claiming that it is an innate part of your identity - that you somehow should be a victim of racism. Now, I realise that this last paragraph is absolutely 100% NOT the case at all - so I too am very confused.

Would you prefer somebody to refer to you as 'my colleague Sharon, who is black' rather than just 'my colleague/friend, Sharon' - and then, when the person to whom you were mentioned is introduced to you in person, for them to be thinking "Ah, this is black Sharon" rather than "Ah, so this is Sharon" and, whilst obviously noticing that you are black, wanting to know far more interesting information about you as a person and your life rather than just what colour your skin happens to be?

No right-thinking person is denying the very real existence and horror of racism; but surely the ideal would be, as far as possible, for race not to be seen as the main significant thing that defines you? How is it somehow naive/racist/a bad thing for many people to behave in this way - to obviously know what race/sex/height you are but to see it as incidental rather than the main thing that they should dwell on?

I know it's not the same thing, but by way of a (hopefully not crass) analogy, if you were female and a builder, would you want people to think and refer to you as Claire the builder - and maybe highlight the jobs that you've done for them; or would you prefer them to obsess that "You'll never believe this, but this is Claire the female builder; yes, she's a woman and a builder; fancy that, eh, who would have thought that a woman would want to be a builder - and have the ability to do it as well?!?! Ooh, isn't she ambitious?!" Who in their right mind would want that rather than just "This is Claire - she's building our new extension for us" ?

It would be just as irrelevant, insulting and tedious if you were a competent, experienced male builder and happened to be only 5'2" tall and to have everybody constantly banging on about 'Little Tim' as if that were his full name, "Ooh, he's only small, but he still does a good job, nevertheless!" and "Do you specialise in skirting boards and leave the ceilings to the others?!"

Back on topic, I genuinely would love an answer to this. Do people of black, Asian and mixed-race origin want their colour to be pointed out and/or the main/a significant thing that defines them throughout their interactions with others or not? Surely the answer has to be 'no'; so then, why does it appear, for many, not to be?

I suspect you know, Miss Butter Wouldn’t Melt

So you have reacted in the way that a lot of people who havent experienced privilege would react, in that its a meaningless phrase

.....when they've not fully understood the concept.

😂

Oh dear! That’s made me really laugh!! Thank you

Given the number of mixed race couples, I’m guessing not everyone feels the same.

Thank you too

Yes, definitely!

I’m mixed race and partner is white British. Nothing wrong with any race

These linguistic rules change every ten minutes.

Thank you feel like I’m in a minority here!

I’ve not seen that. Why the dishonest claim that I am claiming to be blind to colour, by the way? It seems pretty low.

‘They’

Ok so that's an example of a privilege you have. White privilege isn't about being wealthy or not facing hardships, it's just that regular racism isn't something you have to deal with in the same way other people do have to. Its like when you go to the doctor as a white person most doctors are trained from a white view point so if for example a black person went to the doctor for the same condition it might be missed due to that illness presenting differently. If the doctor hasn't done their own research to challenge that thinking you are privileged to be safer as a white person receiving their care.

I don't know if I'm tired or easily confused but if I am to understand the OP then there was a large uptake from a marketing campaign of people who felt represented by that campaign? And because of this you feel that life chances are affected by skin colour?

I actually have no doubt life chances can be affected by skin colour (as deeply shameful as that is), but I am struggling to see the correlation between uptake due to aligned representation and opportunities in life chances?

Is it because too many marketing campaigns feature white people and this will alienate people from different cultural and racial backgrounds?

Because I thought there have been changes with regards to this type of marketing, the majority of campaigns might have white people in them but that is because the majority of people in the UK are white? But I see a wide range of representation in the marketing I come across?

Are you saying things like further education should reflect as many people as possible in their marketing?

I agree with this, and from what I have seen in my local area they do.

Are you saying we should be more aware that people who are not represented in the marketing are less likely to consider the opportunity being advertised?

Then, in certain areas, it is important to widen the marketing available. I say in certain areas because a lot of marketing is all about trying to sell a lifestyle that may not be in the best interest of the purchaser, I am not really a big fan of marketing full stop. But that is my stuff.

I am one of those people who spent a good deal time avoiding conversations about race, because I was scared of saying the wrong thing. But as a person who is interested in heritage and well people in general, I don't (or shouldn't) have anything to worry about.

Just to finish of this post which is probably long and full of daft comments, I rarely see myself represented in marketing, and I know I respond to people who look like me or sound like me. Not because I think they are better than any other representative, but because they remind me of home. And because I think there is that shared knowledge we all have with the people we grew up in that tiny spot in the world with. No more and no less. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's human.

Whose ‘they’

We recently have had a significant number of black carers working within our very white home in a very white area. It's been an eye opener

To say I dont care if you are black white or polka dots is missing the point. Massively

Since they've been in our house we have noticed:

There is virtually no crime in my area, ever. A significant number of the carers have been the victim of (hate) crime in the short time they have been with us. Its cost them money, non of them are surprised

Official organisations dont take the time to understand different accents. On occasion they've let me handle something for them and the difference is horrific.

The organisation that employs them cant be bothered to get to grips with how to pronounce their names. They dont bother to tell the difference between people with the same common surname ( think the equivalent to james smith and John smith).

Originally I couldn't really tell people apart very well visually, (now I find that utterly baffling), my wider family still cant.

Cameras on phone dont pick up their faces properly. They're a good looking bunch of chaps who have to work damn hard to take a good photo. We are a decided average looking family yet the camera has no problem honing in on our facial features.

Being stopped by the police for driving poshish cars is not unexpected.

Lots of other stuff here and there

But oddly Ive also realised their are many many cultural differences over a huge range of topics, from attitudes to gender roles that I would consider decidedly old fashioned, to environmental concerns/recycling, from visible status symbols to pets. I'm well aware if I went back into their social circles I would feel completely out of place.

It's been an absolute eye opener. Sometimes quite heartbreaking. I always thought I didnt care if you are black, white or polka dots, but it is utter bullshit. Increasingly I can tell the difference between those British born, those African born but semi integrated and those who still consider Africa home, just by cultural differences.

I'm really not entirely convinced you can avoid racism. Even your own

I have noticed that many organisations are now replacing POC With “Global Majority”, but going off what I have heard from non white people that’s just as, if not more, controversial.

I dont agree with that.

The problem is that a lot of the descriptors and terminology around race and racism is from America and UK culture is nothing like American culture

There is racism here but its got a different theme, different outcome and our main issue in this country is firstly class, and secondly sexism.

So if you are part of the UK underclass, particularly with the peculiarly British anti aspiration, anti education perspective, the victim mentality - and then you're referred to as having white privilege because you're lucky enough to be white, it means nothing to you.

In this country a white woman, has more in common with a black woman, than either of the women have in common with their male racial counterparts.

Then you must not have been on MN very long. My apologies if you’re not colour blind, glad you agree it’s low.

'Respectfully - why is it an issue to simply view another human being, as exactly that - a human. Why do we need to look at someone and label them 'black' 'asian ' person of colour' rather than just a 'person''

I suppose because your race and heritage is a large part of your identity, as well as a defining factor in things like health and life chances, as the OP points out. And if someone is say black or Asian, why do we have to pretend they aren't there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that there are different races, the problem is when you treat people differently because of their race.

or Maybe he/she (am I still allowed to say that???? ) is happy to see everybody as equal without defining them by colour

That’s a actually quite rude isn’t it?