To not want my children to pay for tax cuts for the middle-class?

[antelopevalley]

A new policy proposal to increase the ceiling for higher rate tax for individuals has been proposed so that it will only apply once you earn £80k plus. But there seems zero idea of how this will be funded.
Realistically the only way it will be funded is by increased government debt. Debt that my children and others will be working to pay off in the future.
Why should my children and others have to work in the future for tax cuts for the middle class?

Government borrowing should be for investment in the future. Building sources of cheap future energy for the future for example. It should not be used for short term political gains.

[SlickShady]

@Jiminycricket10

Scrapping progressive taxation is only fair from a starting point of everyone have the opportunity and ability to earn a decent amount and to progress in line with effort.
We’re a long way off of that...

No it's not. Proportional taxation is fair because the rich don't benefit proportionally more than the poor.

There should be a liveable tax-free allowance, maybe something like 20k, and then every £ should be taxed equally.

[Blossomtoes]

You have a very odd perception of fairness @SlickShady.

[Miajk]

@Beachcomber

So let me get my head around this.

The new PM wants to use borrowed money to give tax cuts to high and higher earners.
During a cost of living crisis / energy / NHS crisis.

The idea being that these comfortable and well off people will spend this money on stuff they can already afford without these tax cuts and that that in turn will somehow boost the UK economy and help everyone (despite the context being that of a global crisis).


Meanwhile lower and low earners are sharing tips on how to heat homes with candles in flower pots and feed families on veg from allotments and packets of dried lentils (that they better try to buy and stock up on before the inevitable price increases really kick in).

And surprise, surprise, the haves think this is an excellent policy. After all we live in a fair, meritocratic society!

The gap between rich and poor just continues to increase in the UK. Not only is is shameful but I honestly don't think it is sustainable. There will be protests if not riots this winter. You can't expect some people to put up with being poor, hungry and cold in a rich country with plenty of money to go round whilst others sit comfortably contemplating which luxury to spend their tax break on.

And all this whilst the energy companies (and their shareholders) sit counting their record booming profits.

It's fucked up people.

I'm a high earner. My partner is not.

We're a generation affected by worst house prices in the history of the country. I wasn't eligible for free education so had to pay for it myself.

We're not millionaires living a lavish lifestyle. We don't have kids. We don't get and never had any government support, not even while paying extorionate rents on minimum wage years ago.

Yes I should be paying tax. Yes I'm happy to do so. No it's not unreasonable to suggest that someone on my position could use some help with cost of living too.

[ScarlettOHaraHamiltonKennedyButler]

@Travis1

More's the pity, she should have aborted me when she had the chance to be honest.

So I can't use the services that I pay for? Okie dokie then. The audacity of parents never fails to astound me.

You said you didn't like paying for children in education. My point is that you will benfit from their education whenever you use the public services in the future as they will be mostly paid for by the taxes of people who are children now and will be propping up the system then, it will also be todays children staffing them.

So my point is if no one pays for education now then no one benefits in the future.

You seem very bitter towards parents, I'm sure it would help if they only taxed us for our own childrens educations but then of course, since we paid we should only be able to benefit so if that were to be the case and in the future you were to be turned away from anywhere that provided any sort of medical assistance (or anywhere really, supermarket, police station anywhere with people working in it) on the basis that only those who funded the education of the doctors/nurses/clerks/cleaners etc. can benefit from it I am sure you would be just fine with that.

[PollyEsther]

Higher rate tax actually pummels income in many cases, and those on lower salaries just don't realise: we certainly didn't when we were lower income! We've been the poorest of poor, surviving solely on benefits, we truly understand poverty. There were years when the only times we were warm were when charities had provided our oil for us, we literally couldn't pay it ourselves. That winter (2010) was the coldest I've experienced in my entire life. We used to think those on £40-50k were absolutely loaded. They're (we're) obviously not poor, but we're far from loaded now either. We can't afford foreign holidays, we don't have shiny new cars, we rent because we can't save a deposit whilst paying all our bills.

It still smarts to see my husband work his socks off and, when tax and NI are combined, lose 50% of what he's earned. He pays an entire person's net salary in tax most years. It's a huge amount of money to pay for an NHS we can't access, schools that are failing, police that don't actually have the funding to solve crimes, and bins that aren't collected (amongst other issues). We don't have any more take home money now than we did when he earned £13k part time and was topped up with Housing Benefit and Tax Credits... the system is drastically wrong and has failed to keep up with the reality of working and living in this country.

[superplumb]

@Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit

We have to incentivise people to do better for themselves.

If you want to benefit from this kind of tax cut, be a higher earner. Admittedly for most adults the ship will have sailed by the time they become parents, but the idea is that you drum it into your DC that they need to do better at school, get better jobs etc to be earning at this level.

Then where is the incentive to be a carer, a nurse, a hospital porter, all of which are vital and arguably more important than a banker wanker. They will never earn more so its not about being incentivised is it. Some people do roles because they like helping people and these roles never pay well.

[SlickShady]

@Blossomtoes

You have a very odd perception of fairness @SlickShady.

Really odd to think everyone should pull their weight equally.

[Doingprettywellthanks]

@Everanewbie

Can we have some balance on this thread? Half seem to think that good earners should pay zero and low earners should be grateful for scraps, and the other half seem to think that well paying jobs are the preserve of some mysterious middle class that is closed to new members, and therefore no one can possibly aspire top it and that anyone with moderate success should be taxed until the pips squeak.

Pretty much the definition of “balance” @Everanewbie !

[Doingprettywellthanks]

@TheBoots

God the replies here are depressing!!! For what it's worth OP, I am in the higher tax bracket and I agree with you. I would happily pay higher taxes in order to have excellent services that benefit everyone.

Since 2000 there have been 204 voluntary payments to HMRC

put your money where your mouth is @TheBoots !!

[Mila1234567]

@sundayvibeswig22

But we all can't be doctors, etc. We need cleaners, shop staff, etc.

No we can't all be doctors, but the more money people have in their pocket the more they will spend, helping to keep people in their cleaning and shop jobs.

I work part time paye and run my own business. I keep my overall salary at 50k due to not wanting to lose my CB and the higher tax band threshold. I make more through my business but keep it in my business account. Obvs I still pay corporation tax on my profits.

50k in real terms is less than what it was 10 years ago so I agree it should be increased (though maybe not to 80k).

Yeah, the trickle down. Which has been proven not to work at all. We need EVERYONE to have more money, so imo it's better to raise personal allowance than to raise tax threshold for middle class only.

[Ncvisitor]

What is the obsession with hating the elusive ‘middle class’? Which btw, your salary does not dictate that you are or are not. Middle earners might be more accurate, but less emotive.

Surely these posters should be advocating for the higher taxation of the really rich? Not the people that are ‘doing ok’?

[Wouldloveanother]

@antelopevalley

So my children should pay the costs of incentivising middle-class people to earn more money?

Middle class people are shouldering the burden of everything else. And they get zero relief - no top ups, no subsidies, and most of the time even child benefit is taxed so highly as to be not worth claiming. So no, I’m not at all bothered if they get a bit of a break. They’ll go back to being squeezed somehow anyway

[Pua]

@antelopevalley

And if they have SEN and will struggle to do any job, tough luck.

My nephew is a labourer on a farm. We are all delighted as he has autism and there were serious concerns he would never get a job. He only has a job because the farmer accepts that he is a hard worker, but needs more detailed explanations and support than other employees.

My husband’s autistic and earns £85k. We’d love a tax cut to help pay for our autistic daughters private education as the state schools in our area are poor.

[nopenotplaying]

I pay the higher rate of tax. I'm certainly not middle class.

[Hawkins001]

@antelopevalley

So my children should pay the costs of incentivising middle-class people to earn more money?

The government debt is unlikely to ever be paid off,

[Weightlossanne]

You cannot just measure people’s worth in monetary terms. There are certain jobs that require high levels of education and commitment but will never be highly paid - should we not encourage people to be teachers, lecturers or nurses.

[Wouldloveanother]

@antelopevalley

And this thread depressingly confirms how little most people understand about basic economics.
I guess this is the reason governments can get away with telling the electorate things that make zero sense.

Does it? To be fair you don’t even seem to understand that the current generation paying off the previous generation’s debts is actually a normal thing that has always happened. The reason we’re poor now is because of people living the high life 30 years ago and taking out mortgages they couldn’t afford to repay resulting in the economy going KAPUT in 2008 and it’s never recovered since.

[Biker47]

Hope it goes up and I'll be dropped out of 40% tax altogether, I'd rather half the money I currently pay into that bracket goes back to me to spend, rather than just be squandered by the government.

I'm also working class, not middle class ;)

[Hawkins001]

@superplumb

Then where is the incentive to be a carer, a nurse, a hospital porter, all of which are vital and arguably more important than a banker wanker. They will never earn more so its not about being incentivised is it. Some people do roles because they like helping people and these roles never pay well.

I Understand how essential a carer, nurse, hospital porter are for their duties and responsibility etc, but I'd argue that for the economy as a whole, a banker is more useful.

[Jiminycricket10]

@Mila1234567

Yeah, the trickle down. Which has been proven not to work at all. We need EVERYONE to have more money, so imo it's better to raise personal allowance than to raise tax threshold for middle class only.

Agree. I do fear that this incentive is noting more than a self-serving MP pay rise - given that many MPs earn 80k+...

[Hawkins001]

@Wouldloveanother

Does it? To be fair you don’t even seem to understand that the current generation paying off the previous generation’s debts is actually a normal thing that has always happened. The reason we’re poor now is because of people living the high life 30 years ago and taking out mortgages they couldn’t afford to repay resulting in the economy going KAPUT in 2008 and it’s never recovered since.

I've been watching documentaries on the 2008 crash, I came across the film the big short, and margin call, and wanted to learn more about the reality of what happened rather than just the fictional version of the films.

[SandieCollins]

@NCforsafety

And I don't want to pay for your children's education, health care, or many of the things my tax payments contribute towards but I have been so for over 30 years as I don't get to have a choice in that. I'm also not a high earner but pay highest tax rate. It sucks. I'd love the tax rate lowered.

Someone else may already have asked this, if you’re not a high earner, why are you paying highest rate tax?

[PerfectlyPreservedQuagaarWarrior]

@Mila1234567

Yeah, the trickle down. Which has been proven not to work at all. We need EVERYONE to have more money, so imo it's better to raise personal allowance than to raise tax threshold for middle class only.

Is it possible this might be done as well? I only ask because the Tories have been in support of this in the recent past. Much of what the Cameron government did was very damaging, but them hiking the personal allowance was one good policy.

[antelopevalley]

The financial crash was not about people taking out mortgages. It was about the deregulation of the market. This led to the offer of mortgages that were at a high risk of defaulting. But the real issue is how this debt was sold on in a way that reclassified the debt as medium risk. Investors paid far more for the debt than it was worth. They did not realise they were investing in a high-risk proposition. When people defaulted on their mortgages, the investments plummeted.
Deregulation tends to give the economy a temporary boost so is liked by governments looking at the short-term, but it inevitably leads to collapses and scandals.
It is normal for each generation to pay the previous generations' debt. And debt can be a good thing. But debt should be accrued for the benefit of the economy or in response to a crisis, not as a political bribe to some voters.
We have the worst of both worlds. Spiralling debt and a lack of investment. The lack of investment almost inevitably means productivity will continue to fall.

[PerfectlyPreservedQuagaarWarrior]

@Doingprettywellthanks

Since 2000 there have been 204 voluntary payments to HMRC

put your money where your mouth is @TheBoots !!

Being happy to pay more tax in order to have excellent services and being happy to pay more tax per se are clearly not the same thing though, because the former requires trust that the money will be used appropriately and the latter doesn't. Perhaps people don't trust the current corrupt shower not to funnel more of our tax money to their dodgy mates.