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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu to think the nurse crisis could be solved if they had an incentive for people to become nurses

354 replies

Starsinyoureyes13 · 04/09/2022 17:52

A student nurse doesn't get paid to study and train on the wards. 37.5 hours and due to lack of nurses they are working alongside nurses wouldn't it be better to pay the trainee nurses and give nurses a payrise rather than NHS squandering money on £60 pound an hour agency staff?

OP posts:
Sidge · 05/09/2022 11:28

The idea that nursing is a vocation probably stems from when nurses were nuns; devoting themselves to god and the care of others.

Nowadays that is outdated and unrealistic. Yes you have to be a certain type of person to be a nurse - qualities that aren’t always quantified in a degree - but you also have to acknowledge that nurses don’t do it for the love of god and humankind but also as a job to pay the bills. They certainly don’t do it for the money!

And those that think nurses don’t need degrees, or maths skills, or any amount of critical thinking or evaluation are stuck in the 1950s. Nursing in the 21st century is totally different to nursing 20/30/40/50 years ago. (I know, I’ve been doing it for 30 years…)

And in response to the PP who said “well people are the same, people have the same diseases, people need the same care” (to paraphrase) errr no they aren’t and no they don’t. The population is older, sicker, fatter, unhealthier, more complex medically, they have different expectations and experiences.

Technology has changed, medications are seemingly limitless, surgical procedures have changed, hospital inpatient stays are minimal, people are discharged earlier and with more complex comorbidities. Community care is extensive, mental health issues are more pronounces, more common and less likely be managed in secondary or tertiary care.

Nurses need to keep up to date with all the changes and developments as well as doing their day jobs. They need to complete mandatory training on an ever-increasing basis due to a risk averse (mostly rightly so) and litigation averse management system. They work unsustainable shifts and unpopular areas are haemorrhaging staff. This has a ripple effect as these areas become staffed by agency or bank staff who don’t always know what they’re doing, so they become more unsafe and harder to recruit to.

Retention is a massive problem, management need to focus on this rather than recruitment, and even pay. Make nursing appealing again - look at shift patterns, parking and transport, enforce breaks, training opportunities, target areas with a bullying problem. There’s so much that could be done but changing the initial training and dumbing down the role isn’t one of them.

Anunusualfamily · 05/09/2022 11:29

I’m a nurse and now work in a non clinical role part time but my background is paeds a&e I’m on the bank at my old job and will only do hours that suit me 9-3 5-10 because it’s not worth the stress of a 12 he and I’ve never been turned down. Units are desperate for staff at the mo the staff that work on there don’t want to do extras and the bank staff can be picky.

Topgub · 05/09/2022 11:33

@Ivegottherona

But staffing is so horrendous that the idea that a 9-3 would be used as a floater is actually laughable.

Youd just be left short for the 7-9 and 3 - 730 part of the shift.

Better than nothing but not something I'd want to see as standard.

NovaDeltas · 05/09/2022 11:37

I'm baffled anyone choose jobs like nursing. Why would you choose to be poor, disrespected and overworked?

Until they triple the pay no one should enter the industry. Women are shoved into dismal 'caring' roles and straight into poverty. They're told a job has to 'make a difference' and shit. Men aren't told that. Men earn money. Men don't decide they're going to earn 4 quid an hour for the greater good.

The sooner little realise it's a sexist con the better. Don't do the shitty care work.

JennieTheZebra · 05/09/2022 11:44

@NovaDeltas
…but I like what I do? I have a 1st class degree from a Russell group university. My sister, identical background, is a diplomat. I could have done anything and instead I chose to become a nurse. Don’t tell me that my choice was wrong.

Ivegottherona · 05/09/2022 11:58

NovaDeltas · 05/09/2022 11:37

I'm baffled anyone choose jobs like nursing. Why would you choose to be poor, disrespected and overworked?

Until they triple the pay no one should enter the industry. Women are shoved into dismal 'caring' roles and straight into poverty. They're told a job has to 'make a difference' and shit. Men aren't told that. Men earn money. Men don't decide they're going to earn 4 quid an hour for the greater good.

The sooner little realise it's a sexist con the better. Don't do the shitty care work.

Tbh nursing guarantees a job and it comes at a price. There's a lot of young nurses and Sisters. I don't think they knew what they were signing up for.... no degree would really prepare you because it's a practical job. Also some wards are better than others. It's a huge responsibility for someone who is 21/22 you couldn't of paid me £40k to take that worry on.

To the outpatients poster... my impression of outpatients is that it's quite hard to bag a job in outpatients because why would you leave outpatients to a ward? It's like gold dust.

gnilliwdog · 05/09/2022 12:06

It seems like nurses have always been badly treated and exploited, and have had to fight for any improvements at all. it's a bit like care staff - mainly women whose caring role is considered as not worth paying properly. The vocation thing is odd, because I always thought being a doctor was a vocation, but they seem to be paid much better. I suppose the more skilled nurses become the more their work may be valued, but that still leaves someone like a HCA doing the care tasks on low pay.

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 12:45

miniwh · 05/09/2022 10:22

No, but my husband worked 9-5 Monday to Friday, in his chosen profession. Like most people, he worked 9-5 Monday to Friday

Same as my husband. That's why I won't be returning.

SplashparkSummer · 05/09/2022 12:50

Snog · 05/09/2022 10:23

I think part of the problem with nursing is that it has historically been a predominantly female career.
In a patriarchal society this has lead to nurses being undervalued, disrespected and underpaid with chronic understaffing and the expectation that extra time (breaks, end of shifts) will be worked without pay. Bullying is rife.

Train drivers (predominantly male) have arguably less training and knowledge and less responsibility than a nurse and yet their remuneration is a lot better and they are not subject to as much abuse in the job.

My daughter's friend is a newly qualified nurse and cannot wait to leave the NHS.
She was subjected to a lot of racism at work during Covid related to her Chinese heritage. Nurses are expected to put up with racism, disrespect, abuse, sexual harassment etc at work from patients and in my view this is not properly dealt with. We need to get to grips with this stuff and not simply seek to entice nurses away from poorer countries who need nurses themselves.

I completely agree with this.

SplashparkSummer · 05/09/2022 12:54

Ivegottherona · 05/09/2022 11:58

Tbh nursing guarantees a job and it comes at a price. There's a lot of young nurses and Sisters. I don't think they knew what they were signing up for.... no degree would really prepare you because it's a practical job. Also some wards are better than others. It's a huge responsibility for someone who is 21/22 you couldn't of paid me £40k to take that worry on.

To the outpatients poster... my impression of outpatients is that it's quite hard to bag a job in outpatients because why would you leave outpatients to a ward? It's like gold dust.

Half the time is spent on placement so they should know what they are signing up for, tbh. A nursing qualification is not just a degree but a professional qualification too.

I do agree it is a lot for a 21 yo. Personally, I would have struggled at 18 to do nursing training.

Nobetterthansheoughttobe · 05/09/2022 13:36

NovaDeltas · 05/09/2022 11:37

I'm baffled anyone choose jobs like nursing. Why would you choose to be poor, disrespected and overworked?

Until they triple the pay no one should enter the industry. Women are shoved into dismal 'caring' roles and straight into poverty. They're told a job has to 'make a difference' and shit. Men aren't told that. Men earn money. Men don't decide they're going to earn 4 quid an hour for the greater good.

The sooner little realise it's a sexist con the better. Don't do the shitty care work.

But according to MN when you post anything against children (don't have them if you can't afford them, for example), there is an outcry of 'but who is going to care for you when you are old?', implying that their DCs only exist to care for their parents and any person who doesn't have children.
So if they aren't now being encouaged to care, who will care!?

Topgub · 05/09/2022 13:53

@Notplayingball

Surely you knew the shift pattern before you had kids?

Why is his career more important than yours?

Why can't he do childcare to support your shifts?

Nurses giving up their careers so their ohs don't have to do child care is depressing as fuck.

Ivegottherona · 05/09/2022 14:04

@SplashparkSummer I don't think it means placements still prepare you for being a newly qualified nurse in charge of a ward, that you can be moved anyway because you work for the NHS and not the actual ward you picked.

Your harsh opinion and a couple of others (show no solidarity whatsoever) you are a prime example of shitty management within the NHS along with the matrons that tell you to get on with it. Once you half through a degree perhaps it's not just as simple as quitting though?

Its a black and white tone you are holding their. People know the shifts but again you don't know what motherhood entails... youbdont know if your kid will be ill, if you can cope with work and motherhood lots of reasons.... again it's easier said than done to shout down didn't you know the hours?

🙄🙄🙄

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 14:06

I remember not getting my requests granted, used to cause a lot of unnecessary stress WRT childcare. Have now got a lot of unexpected health issues which wouldn't be compatible with shift work nowadays so there's that too. No one can predict how the future goes. DH would support but shit happens you have no control over.

Anyway, it's just not a family friendly career. When I qualified, I was single so this wasn't an issue years ago!

TartanGirl1 · 05/09/2022 14:06

Topgub · 05/09/2022 13:53

@Notplayingball

Surely you knew the shift pattern before you had kids?

Why is his career more important than yours?

Why can't he do childcare to support your shifts?

Nurses giving up their careers so their ohs don't have to do child care is depressing as fuck.

I am really confused by this one. My OH and I both have Monday to Friday 9-5 jobs so for both to work needed full time childcare. If you have one parent 9-5 and one on shifts surely childcare is cheaper?

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 14:08

Two of my DC have additional needs so I also need help with them from DH, and vice versa. Again, no one can predict if they have a disabled child Topgub🤷

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 14:09

TartanGirl1 · 05/09/2022 14:06

I am really confused by this one. My OH and I both have Monday to Friday 9-5 jobs so for both to work needed full time childcare. If you have one parent 9-5 and one on shifts surely childcare is cheaper?

If only my life was as plain sailing as yours. Thank yourself lucky.

Topgub · 05/09/2022 14:10

@TartanGirl1

Yeah I'm utterly baffled by it.

This is the second time I've seen a thread like this on mn with folk saying its not family friendly/prohibitive for childcare yet thats the exact opposite experience of everyone I know.

They all do it to save money on childcare and find it far easier than they would working mon to fri.

We never used childcare at all.

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 14:11

Ivegottherona thanks for getting it🙌

TartanGirl1 · 05/09/2022 14:11

@Notplayingball that is very presumptuous and rude!

I asked a question I never made any assumptions about your life so do not do the same to me!

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 14:12

TartanGirl1 · 05/09/2022 14:11

@Notplayingball that is very presumptuous and rude!

I asked a question I never made any assumptions about your life so do not do the same to me!

Where was I rude??

TartanGirl1 · 05/09/2022 14:14

Read your very sarcastic comment about how lucky I am and how plain sailing my life is!

Stopyourhavering64 · 05/09/2022 14:16

I've also been nursing for 35 years and have been a specialist nurse top band 6 for the last 15 years ( can't progress any further in post and there's no career progression -live in a rural part of country so very limited with job opportunities and no other hospitals/ clinics nearby ) ...only plus point is I now work Mon-Fri office hours ( had to reduce hrs as I have life limiting chronic autoimmune illness)
Before nursing I graduated with a MA in Geography but due to personal circumstances and financial crash in mid 80's , I decided to retrain as a nurse
Now my ds also has a geography degree and recently started a grad scheme with a bank on their IT programme...he's 23 and is already earning more than me (£40k starting salary!) , with loads of career opportunities and career progression
many of my cohort are now retiring and I can't wait to join them ....I fully support striking as pay and conditions are dire for my colleagues

Ivegottherona · 05/09/2022 14:17

Topgub · 05/09/2022 14:10

@TartanGirl1

Yeah I'm utterly baffled by it.

This is the second time I've seen a thread like this on mn with folk saying its not family friendly/prohibitive for childcare yet thats the exact opposite experience of everyone I know.

They all do it to save money on childcare and find it far easier than they would working mon to fri.

We never used childcare at all.

Hahaha yes the nursing schedule is so appealing hence the thread. Must be why the nurses leave or join the Bank. Silly us.

Because when you have kids obviously it's the dream to work nights and weekends.

Notplayingball · 05/09/2022 14:20

TartanGirl1 · 05/09/2022 14:14

Read your very sarcastic comment about how lucky I am and how plain sailing my life is!

Apologies, didn't mean to cause any offence.

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