Is this normal and/or allowed? Preschool and nappies

[HueyBleeler]

My DD turned 3 yesterday making her the absolute youngest in her year group. She is starting preschool on Monday. Today we went for a familiarisation visit at the preschool which is attached to older DD’s primary. DD did a poo while we were there and I needed to change her. The preschool teacher got very funny at this point and asked why she was wearing a pull up. I was a bit WTF but then she said that they don’t take children at preschool unless they are fully potty trained so she wasn’t sure DD would be able to come on Monday unless we could train her between now and then. I had absolutely no idea about this stipulation. I’ve rechecked their website and all of their literature and there’s nothing in there about it. There was nothing in the information evening. I’ve never heard of a preschool with this requirement! Is this even allowed? What if she had some medical reason for not being trained? IMO she’s nowhere near ready. V different to older DD who was done and dusted at 2y3m. In a total panic now about preschool on Monday.

When you say pre school, if it’s attached to a school, is at a state school nursery in which children can only attend from the September or sometimes the term after their 3rd birthday? Ie not when they are younger and not a day nursery? If it is a state school nursery yes this is really common sadly unless SEND issues. Because it’s a ‘school’ nursery it’s just not the same as a day care nursery where 3 year olds would be encouraged to potty train but definitely wouldn’t ‘have’ to be.

Every state school has a medical policy which has to comply with LEA policies on disability and delayed development etc. They can't bar children, especially after Covid because getting a diagnosis was impossible and they can't say for sure that the child doesn't have additional needs. It depends on how far you want to push this and what route you want to go down.

It might be common but it's illegal
Op do they take early year funding?if they do they cannot discriminate her neither can they insist you change her as according to the ERIC guidelines leaving a child wet or soiled can be considered neglect.

Our nursery requested that children attending be fully potty trained (although they would of course help if there were any accidents, and all the kids had a backup pair of clothes for this eventuality). I was definitely made aware of this before he started there, but he was 3 1/2 as a January birthday and was probably about your DDs age when he potty trained.

A lot of nursery’s request children be potty trained because it’s easier for them

However, it isn’t legal to exclude them because of it.

Check out the ERIC website

Normal in my experience (5kids). I would just say you're 'investigating ' and carry on. Write them a hard copy letter about it. TBF all mine were dry by 14 months except 1 daughter who was 4 (and she was later diagnosed with autism, absolutely NOT saying that's relevant here, just explaining my situation)
Once they can walk they have generally got control over their pelvic muscles and can be dry. It's not a popular opinion for sure but it's what MPs told me and it makes sense.

Normal that they really don’t like it. I don’t think they’re actually allowed to discriminate but they will push back as much as possible. DD went to the nursery attached to a private school that took them from 2.5 and even at that age they ideally want them trained but would accept half days only in a pull-up provided that they were working on it.

Oh bloody hell ok. I’ll read up on the discrimination. She’s just not there compared to other 3yos I have known.

Yes it’s a state nursery accepting funding but with top ups eg before and after school club and over lunchtime to bring total to 7:45am until 5:45pm childcare.

It's illegal, they do have to make a plan. However in practical terms, it's very unfair when parents of children without complicating issues send their 3+ year old DCs to state run preschool / nurseries without training. There are huge staffing pressures, and if even a handful of kids need toileting help, that will leave the rest with at best only a bare minimum of adult care.

For some children it's simply not possible, but there has been a huge growth of parents who are happy to wait and leave it to others. Among parents who use reusable nappies there are a large number of kids who have SEN but still barely any who are still in nappies at this point, a lot of it really is about convenience.

The problem is (and I’m not saying it’s right at all, and it’s not fair that children who are just three are expected to be the same as a child with a September birthday) that is you have a teacher with qualified teacher status working in a nursery, as school nurseries usually do, the ratio of adults to children is much lower, (1:13) so you could have 26 children in a class with only 1 teacher and an assistant (who has to be qualified but to a much lesser extent). Common set up in school nurseries is 1 teacher and 1, if you’re lucky, 2 assistants. So imagine that 20/26 kids are not potty trained. It would be impossible to run which is why most school nurseries insist on children being potty trained before they start.

To re-iterate, I’m NOT saying I agree with this, and I don’t know about the legalities as I’ve never looked into it. But I do agree as I’ve said, that it’s very unfair that a child who turns 3 on august 31st is expected to be at the same developmental stage with regards to potty training as a child who turned 3 a whole year earlier and is starting at the same time.

OP- look into it and do push back on it though.

Most would be potty trained though , and I expect the Op,s daughter will be in the next few months

I'm afraid that this is standard. Our 2.5yr old had to be fully potty trained, they weren't interested in exceptions.

I'm sorry you've been put in a difficult position. I would expect a child without SEN to be potty trained at 3.

This USED to be common - my youngest is 19, and it was the case when she started pre-school (a committee-run pre-school associated with the Pre School Learning Alliance).

HOWEVER, I was on the committee at the time, and we received clear advice at that point (so we are talking 17 years ago) that all pre-schools would have to change policy because this was discriminatory. A child with a known or unknown disability making it more difficult to toilet train them would be being discriminated against, leading to loss of pre-school education.

I cannot believe that all this time later there are some nurseries / pre-schools that still haven't changed their policy. I suspect it's not in the written / website material because they KNOW it's not allowed, but they try to do it verbally / insidiously / via private hints to parents (in the same way, a local headteacher, when showing prospective parents around the school, knew exactly what to say or communicate via the receptionist to make parents of 'the right type' feel comfortable and those 'of the wrong type' or 'with children who might find things more difficult' feel unwelcome).

Don't panic. Yes, it's reasonable to start trying to train. However it is also reasonable to ask for their written policy stating this (and ask with mild curiosity whether their understanding is that their policy is aligned with current legislation) and not to worry if this attempt at training doesn't work - telk them so, and say you will continue to keep them updated.

@x2boys absolutely, which is why I said that OP should push back on it as her daughter is so young. I think perhaps they ask for it to make sure that the oldest/middle age bracket children aren’t coming to nursery not toilet trained which would be a nightmare with ratios. So I think if your child is young for the year, or just really not ready, it’s absolutely the right thing to question it.

It's unfair to exclude children due to having toileting needs too.

Regardless its illegal
I have a disabled child who due to his severe autism and learning disability didn't toilet train untill he' was nine it always makes me laugh when posters think parents are just lazy and expect others to toilet train their child ,trust me it's no fun changing an older child its certainly not easier .

She will be near enough a whole year younger than others in her group starting now too. They can not exclude due to toileting needs, nor can they make you come in and change. Seeing her peers going may well help her though!

@cantkeepawayforever that is a very interesting point, I had a quick look on the websites of local state schools, and on the nursery pages, I couldn’t see one that mentioned toilet training policy, probably as you say because they’re not allowed to actually publish the fact they won’t take a child if they’re not toilet trained!

And my DS is 6 in a month and not toilet trained. Once you start hitting later 4/5 you get a very sharp shock on just how difficult it is to change a non-baby when out and about. Toilet training is without doubt the easier option but not always possible.

In our school Nursery - so Nursery class within a state school, children are expected to be toilet trained unless there is a medical need or SEN.
It's really down to ratio, 1 teacher and one TA: 26 children.

Now we don't exclude if there is a child coming who's not quite there with toilet training, and we are able to deal with the odd accident, but a child in full on nappies is just not practical, there is simply not the capacity to monitor and change them. School Nursery is very different to a Pre-school setting (where ratios are often 1:8) or a Nursery where the children stay until they start Reception.
It sucks if you have an August born child, but that's how it works.

So basically you discriminate. ?

References:

ERIC
It refers to 'school admission', but we were told that it equally applies to pre-schools and nursery, because essentially the setting is discriminating against a child compared with their peers simply on the basis of their inability to be toilet trained, which is considered a disability by the legislation.

Relevant legislation

Thanks all. I understand about the ratios. There are only 18 in her class so that might be a bit better. In all other aspects she’s not a typical ‘summer born’ - tall, chatty, physically very able. Maybe I should have tried harder this summer. It’s been very disruptive with 3 of 4 grandparents dying since February. I’m screwed.

@PrettyasaPainting that’s basically the (unwritten!) rule in every state school nursery I’ve come across.

@x2boys it absolutely is discrimination and not right. Why should a child who is the right age for school nursery but is just not ready to be toilet trained miss out on their nursery education. I duly agree with you. But schools need more funding. Nursery classes shouldn’t have 2 adults to 26 kids- it’s not enough and schools are having an impossible time with budget cuts.

A child who has literally just turned 3 more often than not won't have SEN recognised if they do, or medical issues.

We couldn't get my son looked at all for medical causes until he was 5 because the NHS don't consider it problematic before. That would have meant 2 whole years of being deemed as no medical issues when actually at that point it was no known issues.

Discriminating based on that for a 3 year old who was 3 this week is baffling. You can't possibly know there's no SEN nor medical issues.