Is this normal and/or allowed? Preschool and nappies

[HueyBleeler]

My DD turned 3 yesterday making her the absolute youngest in her year group. She is starting preschool on Monday. Today we went for a familiarisation visit at the preschool which is attached to older DD’s primary. DD did a poo while we were there and I needed to change her. The preschool teacher got very funny at this point and asked why she was wearing a pull up. I was a bit WTF but then she said that they don’t take children at preschool unless they are fully potty trained so she wasn’t sure DD would be able to come on Monday unless we could train her between now and then. I had absolutely no idea about this stipulation. I’ve rechecked their website and all of their literature and there’s nothing in there about it. There was nothing in the information evening. I’ve never heard of a preschool with this requirement! Is this even allowed? What if she had some medical reason for not being trained? IMO she’s nowhere near ready. V different to older DD who was done and dusted at 2y3m. In a total panic now about preschool on Monday.

@HueyBleeler please don’t feel bad. If there are 18 kids they must have two adults which is a lot better than 26:2. She is literally just 3 and you’ve had family bereavement. As pp have said, I don’t think they are legally allowed to not take her. Talk to the school. Explain you will fully support her in toilet training asap (if you feel that’s right).

Prettyasapainting - that is illegal. Really, really clearly against what the Equality Act 2010 says:

"The responsible body of such a school must not discriminate against a pupil—
(a)in the way it provides education for the pupil;
(b)in the way it affords the pupil access to a benefit, facility or service;
(c)by not providing education for the pupil;
(d)by not affording the pupil access to a benefit, facility or service;
(e)by excluding the pupil from the school;
(f)by subjecting the pupil to any other detriment."

The inability to become continent is considered a disability - it may arise from a disability or be a disability on its own, but it is considered a disability. You are really lucky that the school hasn't encountered an informed parent so far.

There is no mention of it on the website or in any of the information you were given because they know it's not legal for them to require this and they want to be able to plausibly deny that you have been told she needs to be trained by the starting date.

Send a memo to confirm your conversation with the teacher. Ask that the teacher confirm the rule or the policy in writing. Then challenge it.

They haven't a leg to stand on, and it's not up to you to put your child through a process she isn't ready for because schools are inadequately funded. They need to find a way to cater for your child's needs.

@cantkeepawayforever I do wonder if like you said they just don’t publish the fact they ‘won’t’ take children if they’re not toilet trained, but make it clear on open days/visits etc, and therefore most children turn up trained. You’re also right that many parents just won’t be aware of the legalities and assume that it’s allowed. Like I said before, finding is a massive issue. 😞

Funding not finding.

So much legal practice on this thread- seemingly from schools
If they are in receipt of 3 and 4 year old funding they have to accept children who are not toilet trained.

No negotiation or discussion.
thehub-beta.walthamforest.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2020-11/Guidance_for_settings_with_toilet_training.pdf

The Equality Act 2010 prohibits schools and settings from discriminating against disabled children, in respect of admissions, for a reason related to their disability.

With my two, youngest being 18, they were not accepted into the pre-school bit of the nursery unless they were totally potty trained. It was a great incentive to them to get out of pull-ups!

ERIC are an awesome source of information regarding the legality of the nonsense some places will try to pull over this one.

The one I hate whenever this is mentioned though is the whole "diagnosed SEN" angle. DD2 struggled massively with continence - we still need to remind her if hyperfocus kicks in now and she's 9... we were pushing trying to get help for her clearly having difficulties training from about age 3 1/2... we finally got an appointment with the continence nurse when she was 5 - by which time we'd done as much as the nurse would have supported us in doing anyway, having figured it out by ourselves. However - and this is with a very on-the-ball parent chasing referrals up and pushing things through the system - she did not get her DCD diagnosis with lots of issues with interoception and muscletone until age 5 1/2, and didn't get her autism diagnosis until age 8 (and wouldn't have got that then if we hadn't paid to go privately because she masks and clings to rules). When she was age 3, according to some on MN I was just a shitty lazy parent (so much shit from such a little person... so much shit) - but magically became acceptable for her to have struggles once I got a bit of paper making things "official" - 2 years later.

Agreed, changing an older DC is definitely not the easy option. There needs to be far more changing places toilets.

Absolutely, it's laughable people think changing an older child is easier than toilet training them.

Email and ask for clarification on the policy that's stating children must be toilet trained before commencing nursery provision.

You can say you've looked for it but can't find it. You can also ask if they are sure this is the correct information, state the exact words you were told, as you were under the impression that this was not completely in line with current legislation.

Make it a paper trail rather than verbal. This gives you ammunition should your daughters nursery place suddenly be withdrawn due to being oversubscribed.......

OP my older son has just turned 3 slightly before your daughter (couple of weeks) and is not toilet trained.

We have tried once about 8 weeks ago but he was unwilling at that point and thought best not to push it. He wouldn’t have been allowed to continue on into the preschool attached to the private school because of this but I was moving him anyway. I am confident he will be toilet trained swiftly when he feels ready. I feel the comment by @ProseccoStorm is a bit offensive tbh, I have heard of several children who haven’t been toilet trained by their 3rd birthdays with no suspicion of SEN including my own. Hope it works out for you x

@x2boys it absolutely can be easier to keep older kids in nappies than train, especially if it's only wet ones (which is often the case, especially if there aren't underlying SEN/developmental issues).

I worked with some of these families before, usually caring parents but often very busy, often a bit self centred or oblivious to the impact on their own child and others in a childcare setting, and would rather push the issue down the road instead of having to take the time off work to sort, or have a fragile routine overset by accidents post training.

@Buffyfan26 above sounds like an example. Someone who has a 3 year old child with no suspected additional needs who has only tried once and briefly with training is ultimately being very unfair to their child and the other children in the class, who will be getting lower quality care.
Many many 2 year olds are initially not keen, if every parent took this approach then it would almost certainly mean adding an entire extra adult to the class to cope with toileting, and making childcare even more unaffordable for many.

My son was nine when we finally toilet trained him ,due to his disabilities, believe me it's no fun changing an older child . rather then toilet training them.

Even my older son who has no disabilities only became reliable at three years two months ,he didn't start nursery untill he was nearly four so it wasn't an issue, people bang on about all.kids being out of nappies before two in the 60,s andx70,s as a 70,s child myself kids may have been " toilet trained" earlier but I certainly remember there being quite a few "accidents " even up to reception and beyond.

It is not easier to keep a child in nappies. Have you ever changed an older DC on filthy, wet, tiny disabled toilet floor squeezed in between the toilet, bin and sink? Or on the floor of the women’s/men’s toilet or boot of the car because the disabled toilet isn’t big enough/is out of order/covered in piss/being used as a store room and there isn’t anywhere else?

@OverTheRubicon

Having looked back at your previous post as well there is nothing convenient about having a child who has just turned 3 in nappies.

However I will not force my child to be toilet trained before he is at least in part ready and having spoken to several members of staff at his previous nursery they were in agreement with me.

On this we have a difference of opinion clearly but it is unkind at best to suggest that parents like me and the OP are being self centred. My son is now in a nursery which offers preschool hours but is not a preschool so our situation is different to the OP. I will be working alongside them when my son is more agreeable to being toilet trained and they are in agreement on this.

Enjoy your day.

People are obsessed on this site about children being out-of nappies by three, in the great scheme does it matter if a child is three or three and half ,some kid's just take a little longer than others .

That's the case if it's soiling as well as wetness, and then totally agree - even more so when there are (diagnosed or often undiagnosed but suspected) SEN.
However, many children starting school in nappies (especially among those who don't have other underlying issues) are wet only, and in pull ups. In this case, it absolutely is a matter of convenience for some though of course not all parents.

Yes it's easier once training is done, but the hurdle for some - including of children I've cared for, and one in my family - is the hassle of the days at home at the start, and then the weeks after while the child gets used to it.

Apparently this is never ever the case for those on MN, but in real life just talk to anyone who works in a nursery, they'll tell you of so many families who are expecting them to take the lead, including many who will keep their kids in pull-ups on family days and get annoyed when it's taking too long for the childcare workers to sort.

That’s a no then? Until you have a DC it applies to and you live it day in, day out, you haven’t got a clue. Even when it is pull ups and ‘only’ wet it is still not easier.

@x2boys if child is at home and in nappies at 3.5 when they could be trained, then it's absolutely a family decision.

You mention the wider scheme of things, though, and yes, it is an issue. Childcare settings as t preschool age are underfunded already and the situation is worsened when children who absolutely could be ready are not, requiring toileting support with nappies and then later with training.

The environmental impact is also massive. The age of toilet training used to be 12-18 months, and even a few decades ago was around 2. There's a massive environment impact of an extra 1-1.5 years of disposable nappies (and they're pretty much all disposable, as families with reusables have greater motivation to be done with all the washing).

So yes, in the scheme of things it does matter, and if it's possible, late training should be actively discouraged, outside the relatively few cases where a child for whatever reason is not at all ready.

Again I was a child in the 70,s ,children may have been out of nappies earlier ,but it doesn't mean they were full toilet trained .

I agree with @OverTheRubicon - I’ve heard this kind of thing a lot from my parent friends, including debate as to why their childcare provider wasn’t making more progress on toilet training their third child when they managed it with the first two!

Ha anyone who thinks nappies are easier is absolutely deluded.

So ignoring the fact that in most disabled toilets you need to change them on pretty disgusting floors, you then have places that don't have disabled toilets or even toilets at all. I took my children to a country park a few days ago and had to change a nearly 6 year old in the car. If we are too far from a car he would need to be changed in the open public. There is zero dignity in it once they hit 5+.

Wees aren't much easier than poos, the amount of times we have had leakage and required a full change including tops and bottoms. Just because they don't often go poo during the 6 hours at school, it doesn't mean they are continent of poo. My boy's body tends to be anywhere between 4pm and 10pm.

Then there is cost.. my boy has only just been prescribed continence provision. A packet of 16 for when they grow out of the supermarket sizes is £8.50.

But yes, it is easier to leave him in nappies.

There are plenty of parents out there that just can't be bothered to train their DC earlier rather than than their DC having SEN. Some even openly admit it. It's hard work to start with. It's also partly down to both parents having to work full time in a lot of households and living more stressful/busy lives.

I agree that it is awful for the environment. I can see why a pre-school would openly discourage it as well. As PPs have mentioned, it's a lot of extra stress for teachers - who are also under pressure and living more stressful lives!

If it was only DC with suspected SEN that attended untrained then I doubt it would be an issue.