Is this normal and/or allowed? Preschool and nappies

[HueyBleeler]

My DD turned 3 yesterday making her the absolute youngest in her year group. She is starting preschool on Monday. Today we went for a familiarisation visit at the preschool which is attached to older DD’s primary. DD did a poo while we were there and I needed to change her. The preschool teacher got very funny at this point and asked why she was wearing a pull up. I was a bit WTF but then she said that they don’t take children at preschool unless they are fully potty trained so she wasn’t sure DD would be able to come on Monday unless we could train her between now and then. I had absolutely no idea about this stipulation. I’ve rechecked their website and all of their literature and there’s nothing in there about it. There was nothing in the information evening. I’ve never heard of a preschool with this requirement! Is this even allowed? What if she had some medical reason for not being trained? IMO she’s nowhere near ready. V different to older DD who was done and dusted at 2y3m. In a total panic now about preschool on Monday.

@Mumofsend this sounds so hard. Literally no-one is suggesting that having a nearly 6 year old in nappies for all toileting is in any way easy. Of course some children, for a variety of reasons, will be in nappies starting preschool and school, and need support.
Similarly, one of the children in my family has additional needs and requires a bike or scooter (or otherwise proper mobility support) to keep up with other kids on school outings. It's the right thing for school to provide that, where possible. However, it would be very unreasonable (and ultimately unfeasible) if I or other parents expected them to do the same for DCs who hadn't been given enough exercise at home to handle a long walk.

Similarly, children with additional needs, or a one off slower development in this area, are not driving the massive growth in non trained 3 year olds. It's families who do have choices here, and are instead asking childcarers to take yet another job on, trusting that other families will have done the work and ignoring the impact on their child, other children, and the environment.

Again I was a child in the 70,s ,children may have been out of nappies earlier ,but it doesn't mean they were full toilet trained

All small children have the occasional accident, yes. But there’s a big difference between a kid wetting themselves and having to borrow spare trousers once in a blue moon, and a kid routinely shitting or weeing in a nappy and requiring a full change multiple times a day.

My mum is in her late 70s worked in childcare all her working life and is absolutely baffled by the whole thing today of kids still being in nappies at three.

But you don’t know at 3 whether the child has additional needs that prevent or delay toilet training.

Well you know things change we used to discriminate against children in years gone by ,thankfully times have changed maybe your mum should stop being baffled and think on .

Has it occurred to anyone that the reason why more children are starting nursery etc in nappies is because they were not allowed to go attend in years gone by not that young children didn't have toileting issues?

How about having a go this weekend and send her in on Monday in pants. When she sees the other children she might just copy them.

Hi op, just to say we are in a similar (ish) situation.
My ds is 3 and 3 months and starts nursery next week.
We've been semi potty training for a few weeks. Basically he's been wearing pull ups but we have been encouraging him to use the toilet. He's been good, has bladder control, tells us he wants wee. He spent a lot of time naked in the garden during summer and had no accidents at all and would use the potty.
However, he completely refused pants!

Realising we have no time, we have pushed it today and he's wearing pants. However since wearing them, he suddenly doesn't want to use the toilet or telll us he needs a wee. He's had a few accidents, so we now take him to the toilet every 30 mins.

Not sure how ready he'll be by Wednesday!

Thanks all. Just to reiterate I’m absolutely not suggesting she has undiagnosed disabilities (appreciating that it’s not as simple as ‘getting a diagnosis’).

I appreciate I could have done more. My mum also swears she had all 3 of us out of nappies by 18m and we never had an accident but she is the queen of rose tinted hindsight. As I said, it’s been a shit year with 3 of 4 of our parents dying since Feb.

I’ve had her with a bare bum all day today and she did one wee on a potty but I think that was a total fluke. Wouldn’t even sit on the toilet. She doesn’t seem to even realise the wee is coming out. Poo she was clearly saving up and was farting all day then did a giant one in a pull up when I put one on her for bed.

I’ve sent an email to the school summarising the conversation I had with the nursery teacher and asking them to confirm in writing.

Well, she’s still not trained.

Getting multiple pairs of soiled and wet knicks home every day. They seem to be just asking her if she needs a wee and then not encouraging her to sit on loo. She just has no idea when she’s going. I’ve asked them if I can start sending her in pull
ups but they’ve said no. I asked via email and they said they would discuss at pick up so it seems like they really don’t want to write it down. Not sure what to do now.

Just send her in pull ups. If they send her home soiled then complain.

I’d book an emergency week off work and be at home with her and crack it before she’s back in school the following Monday. She really does need to be able to do this. My friend’s child (no SEN) started the pre-reception class at 3.5 still in pull ups and the other children were laughing at her for it. I don’t really understand the “waiting for my child to be ready” approach - they don’t need to be able to say “mummy please may I use the loo?” before you start. Honestly any non-SEN child from their second birthday will be able to crack it with enthusiasm and commitment from parents.

It’s very common, they don’t have the same time that you pay a nursery for. I’d imagine they can make exceptions for medical reasons. Two out of my three children weren’t potty trained then, but mine attended a private day nursery as I worked full time. Might be worth delaying until she’s ready to be potty trained

I think, rather than asking whether she can attend in pull-ups, you send her in pull-ups.

You politely, in an e-mail, state that as you have not been provided with a written policy that children have to be toilet-trained on entry, and since you have tried potty training but it has not yet been successful, you are sending her in pull-ups for her own comfort and for the convenience of the staff.

Point out that it will obviously be much less onerous for the staff to change a single pull-up than multiple pairs of wet and soiled clothes.

Then ask them to inform you how they support toilet training, in line with best practice guidelines, so that you can work together to promote the best outcome for your DD.

(Obviously, if they DO produce a written policy stating that children have to be potty trained on entry, then you can challenge whether this is legal. Equally, if they in any way attempt to make you withdraw your child temporarily - for 'a week of training' or 'until she is trained' - you should not accept)

Children at 3.5 literally do not care. Heck, my son is 6 soon in pull ups and the other kids have never said a word to him, they don't even notice.

it seems like they really don’t want to write it down

Because they know they are totally in the wrong.

It's a Welsh government link but it has the key bit about the Equality Act 2010.
www.rctcbc.gov.uk/EN/Resident/SchoolsandLearning/AccessandInclusiontoEducation/relateddocs/Guidancefortoiletinginschools2020.pdf

"When children enter nursery/school it
is reasonable to expect that the
toileting process should have begun,
even if in most cases the child may not
be fully toilet-trained. That said, under
the terms of the Equality Act 2010
schools must not refuse admission to a
child who is not toilet-trained.
Admission policies and practices that
require a child to be toilet trained are
discriminatory and potentially unlawful."

In vividly remember being at nursery in my last year before reception, so I would have been three.

There were no children in nappies there then (back in the 1980s).

However, I remember a number of children aged 3 who had multiple accidents EVERY SINGLE DAY because they were clearly not ready.

So while they may not have been wearing nappies, they certainly needed them.

How would children of that age know?
My disabled child went to mainstream nursery in pull ups, no other child knew because, Nursery was kind and discreet, when changing him and FYI it's not always SEN are not always diagnosed or apparent, at 3

Yep I was a 70,s child I remember lots of accident, s but Some posters have rose coloured glasses ,as apparently we were clean and dry by two.

It's, illegal and children have a statutory right to an education .

The other children knew because they saw that she wasn’t lining up with them for the loo and because little girls don’t tend to sit all ladylike - it was obvious. It wasn’t nice that she was being teased but it did happen. I posted this because it’s another reason to ensure your child is potty trained before starting school.

And the vast majority are however the Op,s child is starting nursery not school ,
Ime the vast majority of children who start school in pullups either have a diagnosed disability or an un diagnosed disability,
Frankly I would have been horrified if kids had teased my child who was in nappies in nursery and I would have expected teachers to be on the ball about it in my sons case he was diagnosed with severe autism and learning disabilities halfway through his nursery year and ,has attended a special school since reception
I know of just one child who started reception in pull ups at my older son, s mainstream school and he had global development delay.

There is usually only a teacher and a TA in our school nursery and no nappy changing facilities. School send for parents to change soiled pull ups.

Time spent changing children means teacher isnt teaching

Schools should not be asking parents to come in to change DC.

They need to read the ERiC guidelines which suggest its neglect to leave a child soiled and or wet whilst waiting for a parent to come in and change the child