To not find Miss/Mrs/Ms relevant today

[helenabonhamfarter]

In the modern world why do I have to specify if I'm married or not.
Why is it relevant?
Every website wants my title
Even the dry cleaner when I drop my washing off asks "is that Miss or Mrs?"

Why is first name and last name insufficient?
I do have a professional title which I can wheel out which is gender neutral and do so if I want to get arsey but seriously why are we doing this???

The HR woman at my last workplace was like that.

Her: Let me know what you need for name change.
Me: Oh, I'm not changing my name.
Her: Oh that's a shame. (pause) Have you considered double barrelling?
Me: No.
In my head: No, the idea never fucking came to me in the thirty years before I married or the four months since, thanks you funking genius for the suggestion.
Her: Oh well, you know your own mind.
Colleague who had been watching with amusement: I think she does.

I agree - it irritates me every time I fill out a form that insists on a title. I agree that it is nobody's business whether or not I am married but I also strongly dislike the unnecessary formality of it - I far prefer to be called just by my first name. I do not like formality in general though, so prepared to accept the latter reason may just be me!

I agree, I find titles annoying. No need at all for almost every website to have a title box. I quite enjoy picking reverend or viscount if they are options. I don’t understand why people think using first names is rude or inappropriate-it’s just your name? In Sweden children call teachers by their first names and there’s no lack of respect. I can’t remember the last time I was called by anything other than my first name.

I use Ms and wish all women did but it’s still not ideal-I think it unfortunately can have a bit of a stigma attached and can be viewed by sexist people as the title bitter unmarried super feminists use rather than just being the default option. I wish there was just one option for women like there is for men (although is there really a need to address people by gender at all?). I quite like the idea of using Mrs for everyone as it sounds nicer than Ms and has more respect attached to it but don’t think it would catch on.
I feel that the titles Miss and Mrs only benefit smug newlywed women that wish to advertise their married status, and can benefit men by giving an insight into whether a woman is married or not before they hit on her. Whereas there is no information to be gained about a man’s age and marital status from his title.

It is a sign of respect & a way to deal with people you do not have a personal relationship with.

Nobody actually really cares about your marital status, other than perhaps your family, they just don't want to use your first name.

If you say Miss/Ms/Mrs/Dr, I honestly don't even think about what it might mean for your marital status as it doesn't really tell you the truth of that, it's just the title you have chosen to use.

Offering your name without a title to people you don't know is what children do, or those who know they are subordinate/inferior to you.
That's the message you send when you don't use a title.

That's why people say things like Sir/Madam when they don't know you at all in a restaurant etc.. instead of "Oi you".

They are being polite & respectful instead of treating you like you are nothing.

No I don’t, that’s not what I said….

Goodness. The schools my children have been to would never permit teachers to use first names for parents. In the same way, I wouldn't address a teacher by their first names, and neither would the students.

What? So if I say 'Hello I'm Susan Smith' (not my real name) rather than 'Hello I'm Mrs/Ms/Captain Smith' or whatever, then I am implying that I think I'm inferior or subordinate? Is that what you mean?

I use Ms when pushed, I'm married but Mrs sounds fussy and old to me and Miss sounds like I'm 12. But I would prefer no title, I think all this formality is quite old fashioned and unnecessary really, why would I be offended by someone using my name? It's my name... I don't feel like I need or am entitled to some sort of pointless show of respect from the person at the sky call centre or wherever.

My mum used to tell me off because I always called my Aunties and Uncles by their first name, rather than Auntie Angela etc, but could never really articulate why this was a problem. I think people in this country are hung up on status and class and this debate is just another part of that.

I have been mulling over my gut reaction to this.

Instinctively, I do think that it is a good thing for there to be a way of addressing people in English which is more formal or respectful than just "First Name". But then I tried to think of the situations in which I would want to be addressed in that way. I came up with:

1. Person in a position of authority that I am suspicious of- police officer pulling me over, tax inspector.

1. Person trying to sell me something big like a car or double glazing.

and I realised it was all about power play.

Conversely I have no problem with the following calling me "First Name", even on first meeting:

Doctor, dentist, shop assistant, any work colleague, anyone I meet in a professional context (I'm a solicitor), my son's teachers, staff of call centres.

It's also now completely standard and professionally respectful to address communications to people as "Dear First Name" and anyone writing to a client as "Dear Mr x" would be seen as odd and old-fashioned (we don't act for private individuals in their personal capacity though).

However I think I would call my son's teacher "Mrs Brown" as that is what the children call her.

If there is a residual need to use a title I can't get worked up about which of the three female options to use. I used Miss right up to getting married when I was 40 (I think I was modelling my lovely Great Aunt who was "Miss Jones" till she died at 90). , now I use both Mrs Married Name and Ms Maiden Name simply because I hold ID in both names and Mrs Maiden Name is factually incorrect. However I fully understand why this is a bone of contention for many women and do wish that all women were just Ms like men are Mr and I agree 100% that a person's marital status is not something that they should ever be obliged to disclose. I also hate the nonsense about "Ms means you are divorced".

The solution is probably to do away with titles altogether. We are moving that way, as I realised when I thought about how I use them, and banks and the like could indeed help by not requiring a title on every form. Or at very least including a "prefer not to use a title" box.

I use Ms- I’m not married, but even when I was engaged I planned on continuing using Ms.
Don’t know why women need a different title to show whether or not they’re married in this day and age. Still, some women like it I guess, or we’d all use Ms.

I used to work in a university that did this for it’s students, on things like exam seating plans. It was a very male dominated subject as well. They genuinely thought it was acceptable.
It was a pit of misogyny in so many ways.

In the primary school near us the children address the teachers and TAs by their first names. I really don't like it at all. My son goes to a different school where they do use Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms X.

As I said above, I would address the teacher in the same way that the kids do unless invited to do otherwise. I wouldn't necessarily even know his or her first name.

However I have absolutely no problem with my son's teacher calling me by my first name in exactly the same way that a work colleague would. She's not my subordinate.

Agree, OP. I'm pretty old-fashioned, but the constant asking for titles is annoying - eg when ordering online.

But, feminist though I am, I've also hated Ms simply because I think Miss does the job perfectly well. If all women in professional life were Miss, that would work (wouldn't it?) and also be easier to pronounce! Film stars, eg, Liz Taylor, was always 'Miss Elizabeth Taylor' no matter how many times she tied the knot.

All the high-powered women bosses I've worked for have been Miss, and they're not people you'd mess with.

As for the gender issues - OK, I'm not up to speed on those. But if people are happy to identify as either Mr or Miss, I think that is better than bringing Ms into things.

How dare the lower orders not address you properly 🙄

I had to apply for a dbs recently. I could only be Ms if I was divorced. And had to input when I changed my surname. I’m a Ms but married with my own name. Apparently this is not allowed. I had to put in Miss if I wanted to use my birth surname.

You don't get to decide what other women refer to themselves as.

Indeed they don't, but you're still applying differing standards to two groups of women who both want their preference. Plenty of women who use Ms are fine with that too. You don't know that women who want a title denoting marriage wouldn't come up with another if attempts to universalise Mrs for adult women were made either.

Also, the idea that Mrs is the senior title is itself part of the problem, and indicative of the awful connotations. A title indicating marriage is not indicative of seniority. Only of marital status.

It has zero to do with position or class. It is to do with respect for the person. I would call anyone of any class or position that I did not know by their title. I have had customers all over Europe, and the Middle East, and there are very specific rules for how to address people, in Italy almost everyone has some sort of title, in Germany there are very strict rules on how to address people. Even in the US it would be very disrespectful not to address an adult as Sir or Maam.

I completely agree and I hate it. Men are Mr and that’s it. Doesn’t matter. I don’t want people knowing if I’m Miss, Ms or Mrs especially in a work setting. It’s so sexist and there is judgement behind each one.

In Germany it’s Frau for women and Herr for men. Those same words also mean man and woman. It just means adult basically. Not the same various combinations to show how young or old you are and whether married like we have.

@BigWoollyJumpers there was a poster earlier in this thread who said that in the US very little correspondence uses titles any more, just First Name.

I appreciate that is not the same as speaking to someone and calling them Sir or Ma'am, which I know is still far more prevalent than in the U.K.

I suppose to undermine the current system you should use Mrs if you’re not married and Ms if you are, but that requires more of a sacrifice from the married, I think.
I’m not judging or blaming, I’m just trying to be practical.
Meanings can change. Connotations can be forgotten.

Totally agree. I changed all my ‘Miss’ to ‘Ms’ back in the day. I refuse to be defined by my marital status. Everyone assumed I was divorced.. so again, connotations as to my marital status. I’m officially a Mrs now, but buggar changing it again. The Ms is ambiguous, but tbh can we just drop theses titles ?

Or Miss if you’re married.

It’s nothing to do with class, it is just fucking rude and presumptuous for anyone to address a stranger by their first name.
I’m a retired doctor, and I would never have dreamed of rudely addressing a patient - whether a millionaire aristocrat or a homeless ex prisoner - as “Hi Jane” rather than “Good morning, Ms Bloggs”.
If they then say “Please call me Jane”, I will do so, but never without permission first.
And it really puts my hackles up if some call centre operative doesn’t extend the same basic courtesy to me.
First names are for close friends and family only. Do they not teach simple etiquette at school any more?

They are relevant . As a nurse it is a mark of respect for my patients in sometimes very difficult circumstances .I do not want to address them by their first name .I live in Germany also and these rules are still very much respected .