To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

YABU

I've got no problem with people believing in their God and I must have get admit I get really rankled and pissed off with people saying the 'sky fairy' and 'imaginary friend in the sky blah blah blah.' It's so fucking rude, so just STOP that already,

Most people I know who are Christians. genuinely don't really care what anyone else thinks, as it's your opinion if you want to think it's an imaginary friend in the sky. But to berate peoples religion like this is quite nasty. Anyway, I digress.

The problem is @Digita that although there is no problem with anybody having a deep faith, (indeed it just bring a lot of comfort to people,) I think posting stuff like you posted on here is going to drive the atheists and the haters of religion (and the people who disbelieve in it,) even further away, as there is a lot of preaching here - really really bad preaching here. And all the links and telling people what's what. No wonder the YABU % is so high! Basically saying 'if you're not a good iccle girl u goin' to hell.' Just stop with that.

I have noticed children from religious families are very well behaved/do better at school etc, but also some of them end up rebelling against society, no longer being the 'good kid they were' and absolutely HATING religion when they're older.

I'm a Christian and my husband is an atheist and we rub along brilliantly ... He's got fantastic respect for my religion and he loves to hear about what's been going on at church etc, and I have no problem with him being an atheist ... Indeed if I ever had another man (if my DH he died or left me,) he would absolutely have to be an atheist or Christian. I wouldn't accept any other religion, and would never convert to another religion. but I would accept a non believer as long as he didn't mock me coz then he's gone! But yeah this thread really is very very goady.

If they think there's no god, then there's no fear of divine retribution either. So, anything goes.

That's a bit of a leap, isn't it?

You don't have to have religious faith to do any of those things though, you just need to be a nice, decent person. If these people didn't have faith would they still do such charity and outreach work? That's the test, not whether they follow a religion or not.

I expect people are goady as they are so outnumbered, tsaoist (?sp), buddhist, Christian and it's various forms, Jewish, Hinduism and its various forms, muslim and its various forms, Mormon etc
Seems humans needed a higher being so that's how it is.

Yep. Corrupt to it's core

Are you sure that’s true of the justice system?

In Susan Sage Heinzelman’s course “Representing Justice: Stories of Law and Literature”, she states something I found thought-provoking:

“One of the points of the course is to break down the stereotypical definition of literature as ‘fictive and subjective’ (and therefore primarily emotionally persuasive) and law as ‘factual and objective’ (and therefore primarily intellectually persuasive). Aligned with these stereotypical expectations is the assumption that literature is the realm of the feminine, and law, that of the masculine. This course should unsettle those assumptions and suggest how deeply and inextricably intertwined these two discourses are.”

The first few lectures focus on how the criminal justice and legal systems were formed. God(s) are intrinsically linked to Justice (possibly explains why Lady Justice, the Goddes Themis, continues to be a symbol for the courts). E.g. “the gods have a sense of justice that cannot be understood by any individual” (in one of the texts). “The concept of justice, personified in the figure of Dike, daughter of Zeus and Themis, is finally a suprahuman concept”.

Really interesting course btw.

My concern for a godless state is that it could quickly become lawless too

(too much wall of text, i read this far and am losing the will to live)

There is ZERO evidence that a "godless" state could become lawless. Why do you think that? Yet again we have to come back to this: we don't need a religious text to tell us how to behave. We have laws for that. Now some of them are the same as in religious texts because - hey, who would have thought it! - religion used to be a way of keeping people in check. So not killing, stealing and all that - for sure there is an overlap. There is zero reason to ban things like eating shellfish and dairy in the same meal now - although when those rules were thought up in a hot country without refrigeration, sure they made a lot of sense (not wasting medical resources unnecessarily, for example)

Studies of small children show that they are very much invested in fairness and sharing. That is human nature as a social animal. How do ants do it? Or is there a great formicary in the sky and an actual Ant Goddess?

Again: your religion is your own personal business. Pretty much like other freedoms your ability to enjoy that ends where it impinges on other people's lives. Sure if you think you're going to turn into a whirling dervish of rape, murder and pillage if you don't follow the tenets of a religion, go for it. The rest of us, not so much

Well, not so much in the UK. We are not the USA.

not old enough to remember the Tories as the party of the family and Cecil Parkinson? Sure it happens in the UK. Boris flipping Johnson FGS

Yep. 100% (also Irish here, grew up indoctrinated through school & state etc)

Just to add, not one single time during the Pandemic did I question whether god started it, fucks sake, that was ALL us

Given that most people in this country do not have a faith that regularly compels them to church/ mosque/ temple then I think that your theory is BS.
it’s not faith or fear of god that prevents most people from stealing, killing etc.

@WhileMyGuitarGentlyWeeps "No wonder the YABU % is so high!"

Mumsnet stats tell me: "You have one vote. All votes are anonymous."

So, that might explain the high YABU percentage.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics".

I genuinely wanted a discussion. The philosophy/religion section is quiet, whilst AIBU has more traffic and is more likely to get a general population response. I'm interested in what real people think and feel. These topics can be a charged issue, but that's not a reason to shy away from the discussion.

so, OP, you can see the vote and now you're calling it lies?
And you wonder why agnostics and atheists are rolling their eyes at you?

Again: keep your religion to yourself and we'll all rub along just fine. Try to put it in my way? We're going to have a problem.

(also for those who think the UK politics is not as bad, for religious fervour, as the US - your time will come. You only have to look at people like Rees-Mogg to see where it's going. And all that guff about how Theresa May was the daughter of a vicar so obvs very kind and caring. Well, i don't know about her personal religion, but she was a deeply divisive and cruel prime minister)

@Brefugee "so, OP, you can see the vote and now you're calling it lies?"

Are you saying one vote (in total) is an adequate sample of votes to represent 16 pages worth of responses?

🤔

Do you understand how statistics and percentages work?

For some reason I can't vote, the buttons appear for a moment when I load the page in the browser and then disappear again, so you're missing a YABU from me. I thought the 'you have one vote' just means each poster can only vote once?

@Brefugee Silencing discussion is not how you're going to combat anything faith-based. Philosophical discussion ought to open up ideas and understanding - on all sides.

Also, the religious stuff you don't like seems to be deeply entangled with the justice and legal system that governs society, so it is what it is. That's kinda how the OP came about. If the studies suggest that 'fear' of gods (as opposed to favours) was useful to forming human civilisations (law, order etc. that characterise 'civilisation'), it begs the question of what society would lose without the concept of 'gods'. www.ox.ac.uk/news/2016-02-11-fear-divine-retribution-linked-spread-human-civilisations

Recommended course: Susan Sage Heinzelman’s “Representing Justice: Stories of Law and Literature”

I do indeed understand how percentages and statistics work, thanks for the patronising bollocks though.
It is very simple: of the number of people who have voted - who may or may not be arsed to write on this thread - the vast majority have picked the YABU option.

It is there in front of everyone's eyes.

That's not the sort of understanding of 'truth' that has any place in the criminal justice system, except perhaps for considerations of intent

I should have said 'that should have any place in the criminal justice system'.

The course you mention may be interesting but I'm not too convinced by the part you quoted. “the gods have a sense of justice that cannot be understood by any individual” .... that really doesn't sound like a good thing. More an excuse for arbitrary laws convenient to the powerful.

FFS you can't even read posts in your fervour to get out your next load of doctrinaire stuff.

I'm not asking people to stop talking about religion. I am asking for it to be removed from public life and not to receive public funds.

Recommended course: Susan Sage Heinzelman’s “Representing Justice: Stories of Law and Literature”

again with this? You are Susan Sage Heinzelman and i claim my fiver.

It is there in front of everyone's eyes.

Not mine for some reason. I'm assuming it's not a huge number of votes but more than the single one that the OP appeared to be claiming.

currently 418 votes, 82% of which are YABU

Frankly it is laughable how much misinformation is contained here.

I am reminded of what Jomo Kenyatta said.

"When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.”

OP you have quoted various papers, books and even the reviewer of a book no less than 13 times to support your position.

There's really no need. It's just someone else's opinion who chimes with yours.

I could fill a page with links that chime with mine.

It's not really adding to the debate, and frankly is giving off a patronising vibe.

It's been interesting and enjoyable, let's not spoil it.

Your own thoughts in your own words is perfectly adequate.