To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

[Digita]

To think it’s unwise to lose the idea of God(s) in society?

Whenever I hear people arguing why faith in any sort of higher being is 'stupid' or 'delusional' I wonder if they've thought through the wider implications of a godless society. It might not be all that it's cracked up to be... the idea of higher beings might be invented but invented for a reason too. Is there a need for a philosophical concept of something more for accountability, law and order?

“Society needs reasons for people to tell the truth even when it is to their disadvantage.” Why swear on a Bible? The Courts have kept swearing an oath on religious texts because there’s still a psychological, moral force behind it.

"Co-operation is a key component in human interaction and also, according to new research from the University of British Columbia, the spread of civilisation. Not because for any altruistic reason, though; instead it might be directly down to a fear of a vengeful god." Fear of punitive gods linked to rise of human civilisation’

‘A new study published in the journal, Nature, tests the theory that communities are fair and cooperate with outsiders because of the fear of divine retribution.’ ‘Moralistic gods, supernatural punishment and the expansion of human sociality’

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Did you have 'what if' appraisal moments with just Christianity or other faith possibilities too?

God is not necessary for any rational hypothesis if you take a completely materialistic worldview with life having no ultimate meaning. If you go deeper then it is unsatisfying.

Because a being would have form, structure, dna, molecules, ect, a living breathing being, basically like Q, beings from star trek. That to me would be god, like beings, with extraordinary abilities.

God is not necessary for any rational hypothesis if you take a completely materialistic worldview with life having no ultimate meaning. If you go deeper then it is unsatisfying.

I'm not at all sure I understand what you mean here. When you refer to life having 'ultimate meaning' do you mean the soul and an afterlife? Because all lives have ultimate meaning, god or no god. We all leave something of ourselves behind - the consequences of all the choices we made and actions we took, the lessons we learned. That isn't materialistic, and knowing that you did what you could to make the world a better place isn't unsatisfying. Are you saying that it is impossible to go 'deeper' without believing in a god?

I don't need an imaginary being to guide me as to what is right and wrong.

I don't know if I consider myself to have a religion. Like Pi in 'Life of Pi', I found a few fits, but not one size fits all.

Thinking of something more, call it god or gods, as 'unknowable' is about recognising it's too big and I have limitations as a human. I meditate, for instance, to connect with the unknowable, and I feel it's essential for transcendence; one day, I will die, but I'd like to have invested in my spiritual well-being for when that day comes. Death is unknowable too, but we still know it death happens. Meditating on death has been helpful in dealing with the unknowable and being mindful.

"Knowing the Unknowable God: How Faith Thrives on Divine Mystery" by James R. Lucas

Love your username, @AhNowTed . I'm also Irish, and the notion of 'not having engaged with God in any meaningful way' is indeed laughable. I went to a Catholic school, 'religion' was taught every day, we had First Confession at age 6, First Communion shortly after, and Confirmation at 12. We had regular school masses. Then secondary school was the parish priest visiting regularly, nuns chastising us for talking to boys, mass and confession (which we were absolutely made to do) at the end of every term.

I was brought to mass every week, I've been taught the songs (did you have to learn the one about Zaccheus? 😂). I've even met a Pope. Still not religious after 13 years of Catholic education and indoctrination.

The purpose of the Christian life certainly is not ‘going to heaven’. That is mediaeval theology. I recently heard an atheist professor say, ‘Life has no meaning whatever.’ That was honest given her worldview. It is also the worldview of the naturalist Ecclesiastes 1

If 'do you really want to risk a vengeful God coming after you?' works as an effective deterrent for perjury then it is what it is.

To all those who say 'oh but it wouldn't mean anything to me because I'm a staunch atheist', it would be interesting to see in practice. There's a lot of subconscious psychology that plays on people's guilt. The whole, 'but what if?'.

This is nonsense. Even plenty of people who do believe in god manage to commit all kinds of crimes and atrocities, so what makes you think that a vague, fleeting 'what if there's a vengeful god?' moment would be enough to deter the few atheists who'd have those moments from doing something bad?

I can honestly say that if I were for some reason contemplating committing some terrible crime, my fears would be of the law, the actual consequences of my actions for myself and others, the judgment of people I know, and to a lesser extent of people I don't know. The possibility of the existence of deities wouldn't even enter my mind! But all of those other fears are a pretty good deterrent.

So, if there is a God then you wouldn't know anyway because you don't appraise or engage with the possibility in any meaningful way.
Tis folly to be wise when ignorance is bliss.

I've read a lot of patronising piffle in my time (I studied Philosophy so you're up against it here) but this takes the cake, tbh.

It is typical of religion to move the goal posts, pretty much like OP is doing on this thread. Just a lot of words and then "ah, but god* is unknowable"

*goddesses are available

@Malie I would have to disagree with that professor, and I am definitely an atheist. Just goes to show we are all individuals with our own take on belief!

I suspect there is a lot of overlap between 'the Christian life' and the 'Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish life'. You could even include the Pagan life, given the first tenet of the Pagan faith is 'do no harm'.

Victims of abuse by the religious self righteous would beg to differ.

The way I see it is:

Before there was established religions (by this I mean the main ones Christianity, Hinduism, Islam Judaism etc etc) the was "beliefs" such as was practiced in nomadic tribes etc. The problem with "beliefs" was that there was no standard text or reference document on what was right or wrong, decent or indecent, kind or unkind, respecting or disrespecting others.

So there developed a need to show / scare the good folk of the Middle Ages to live in a right, decent and kind way ( with varying degrees of success).

Now that the basic concept from religion of how we should live our lives in a decent, kind and respectful manner has been established for the last say 100 years there has been a decrease in the last day 50 years of people declaring no religion or feeling that they don't need the concept of an invisible being up in the sky telling them what is right or wrong.

The problem though with this approach is that without a standard text or reference document from a religion on what is right or wrong, then what is right or wrong is open to interpretation by each individual. And we see these different interpretations on AIBU all the time. The issue is that what is right or wrong becomes more fragmented over time with an incentive for a race to the bottom. For example Robin Hood still gets sympathy because he only stole from the rich (despite this still being theft) and let's not forget Robin got to decide who was "rich".

So in short I do still see a need for religion(s) today to give a standard moral direction and although some may say they will decide what is right or wrong the problem is what they view as right or wrong is not the same as what a wider functioning society needs as right or wrong.

The major religions seem to have so much focus on maleness that I have turned to the feminine divine just to even up the balance. I have a few favourite goddesses who are not bothered about worship, they just like to be brought into the world and made alive. I do this by loving them and honouring them with actions like feeding birds, watering plants or laughing. It's delightfully easy and comforting for me, though wouldn't expect others to understand. I do find all the macho god stuff quite boring.

Oh and religions are largely used for the subjugation of women and girls so is this really the forum to push any particular form of god bothering?

You have both conflated God and Religion. They are not the same thing.

It sounds like you've engaged with the Catholic religion (one of many religions) and ticked the boxes. That's not the same as engaging with God in a meaningful way, necessarily.

"Religions are human institutions that, at their best, help people to experience and be close to God. However, the relationship between a religion and God is like the relationship between a radio and music. Just because you don't have one does not mean that you can't experience the other." - Reb Jeff

That sounds delightful. May ask which goddesses?

Having a belief in a higher power is neither a prerequisite or guarantor of moral behaviour.

Humanism and forms of spiritual atheism have frameworks for ethics and morals that don't require a higher power to hang them from.

People can develop a sense of morality without the threat of punishment upon death by a not proven God.

@Digita I'm on Isis, Sekhmet and Kuan Yin at the mo, but that could change.

No not Catholic.

And Irish people know all about god, we've had it up to here.

You can keep quoting, it means nothing.

Your god is a fairy story based on faith. There is not a single shred of evidence.

But carry on arguing over semantics if it makes you happy.

Absolutely this.
I also believe in scientifically proven fact and not ancient hearsay.

Another thread where the flying monkeys from the National Secular Society are out in force.
It seems strange that so many posters are keen to berate both religion(s) and anyone who chooses to follow one.
If we choose to believe in "an imaginary sky fairy", "an invisible friend" why not leave us to our "delusions" instead of having 13 pages of posts about it ??

I think religion causes far more poverty, war and oppression than anything else. Ridiculous nonsense to keep people in their place.

It has no place in today's society.

You know, whenever you talk about "Your God...", you are almost inevitably going to be wrong.

You simply can't know how the other person conceives God. All you are ever doing is refuting your own idea of who the other person belives in.

The number of times people on here have accused me of believing in this, that or the other that bears no relation to my faith.

I'm truly sorry for all the awful experiences people have had at the hands of organised religion, or abusive families who happen to be religious.
That's not the God I know. Jesus told us not to judge, and to love each other as well as we love ourselves. If anything bad happened to you, then it was not in the name of Jesus despite what the perpetrator might claim.
I'm sickened by the abuses of the church in the past. I'm hovering on the edge at the moment, deciding whether to leave or whether to stay and work from within. The safeguarding requirements are pretty stringent these days. I don't think we'd be as easy a target for predators as we were.