Disability And Abortion: The Hardest Choice CHANNEL 4

[Wouldloveanother]

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11155443/DOMINIC-LAWSON-Doctors-stop-pushing-mothers-aborting-disabled-babies.html

I’m planning on watching this in the next few days, but I’m getting increasingly concerned about the amount of anti-choice activity going on under the guise of ‘disability equality’.

Why do you think you have any right to discuss or even question what level of disabilities women can abort over?

Exactly that is a decision for the individual woman with support from her support network and medical team.

I think disabilities do vary in their impact. It's possible to lead a fulfilling life when you are deaf or blind. My friend was born over 50 per cent deaf but has a good degree and is successful.

Also, whilst I understand the sentiment some have of allowing a termination up to birth, who do they think will be willing to remove a full-term pregnancy?
Many surgeons will not go above 18 weeks with termination companies and charities, which I can understand personally and current limits make me somewhat squeamish, but taking a fully formed and regular sized baby out for “any reason”, nah that’s crazy. Pretty much nobody is going to want to do that just because a pregnant person has decided it’s not longer for them.

Same.

At 40 weeks the baby should just be delivered and put up for adoption, if it's not wanted, not aborted.

completely agree.

In terms of very late abortion what happens to her body will be identical either induction or C-section. The only difference is what is done to the baby.

This. The baby would have to come out either way. It won't just disappear. It's not like an early miscarriage. So there's no reason to not deliver the baby alive.

I think there’s no harm in informing women about their options. It becomes harmful when other people want to decide for a woman that she should keep a baby she doesn’t want in the name of equality. A fetus shouldn’t have more rights then the woman carrying it. End of.

Just to be clear, many medical conditions are only picked up at the 20 week anatomy scan. It's categorically untrue to say that "many surgeons" in the UK refuse to carry out abortions after 18 weeks. Medical professionals abide by the law not their own arbitrary gut feelings.

@Georgeskitchen @SlagathaChristie I agree completely. UK law is sufficient, I think. It allows for various health reasons up to full term. We don't need to change it to up to 'full term for any reason,' I think.

Well no, D&E is also an option when it comes to late term abortion. It is not the case that the ’baby will come out’ in a way that mimics live birth.

i’m not sure why anyone else’s levels of comfort, or indeed discomfort, should have an impact on any pregnancy other than their own. Your dislike of late termination doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be an option for other women.

Fully pro choice.
The female carrying the foetus makes the decision if/when to abort within legal limits.

Just to be clear, many medical conditions are only picked up at the 20 week anatomy scan. It's categorically untrue to say that "many surgeons" in the UK refuse to carry out abortions after 18 weeks. Medical professionals abide by the law not their own arbitrary gut feelings.

i think the PP was referring to situations where there is no foetal abnormality. You’re right about conditions being picked up at 20 weeks or even later with amniocentesis, which is why there isn’t a set limit for termination for those conditions. This wasn’t a problem when the limit was 28 weeks. But 24 weeks meant the timeframe could be too short.

Doctors, presumably. Much like the ones that do it now.

I did dislike the mum who was given a choice to terminate the pregnancy of her DS boy but wants to deny that to others. Sorry. Nope.

'i’m not sure why anyone else’s levels of comfort, or indeed discomfort, should have an impact on any pregnancy other than their own. Your dislike of late termination doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be an option for other women.'

I think people feel there should be limits to when it is morally acceptable and not everyone sees a late term foetus as a non-person. It's often said that women wouldn't abort for no reason at late term anyway, but as someone has already said, we don't make laws based on predictions of what people may or may not do. We outline what is morally acceptable to us as a society.

Is that Maire? I’ve heard her being interviewed a few times, I take huge issue with a lot of what she says. She repeats the same phrases over and over, such as ‘my son isn’t valued the same as my healthy child’ when he is there are no rights her healthy son has that her son with DS doesn’t. She also talks a lot about ‘not knowing how to explain this to my son when he’s older’. Given her son won’t ever be needing a termination, and most NT adults don’t know about this law, it’s highly unlikely he will know anything about it unless she tells him.

I’ve also heard her asserting that her son is ‘happy and very healthy’ a few times. Which is disingenuous - yes he’s lovely and seemingly happy, but he’s got numerous ongoing health problems which she blogs about.

Yes it was.

YANBU.

The people behind the court case, trying to get the abortion time limit for disabilities reduced to 24 weeks, are the same people behind the 'Don't Screen Us Out' campaign, which attempted to prevent the roll-out of early trisomy testing on the NHS. And yes, they are linked with right wing evangelical anti-choice campaigns.

They are also behind the championing of the weirdly empty new Down Syndome Act and the resurrection of the long dormant APPG on Down's Syndrome. This is chaired by Lisa Cameron SNP MP who is very very friendly with SPUC. The group is also attended by Lord Shinkwin and Lord Alton, both of whom have in the past introduced private members bills trying to lower abortion time limits.

Thread about the links:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4539125-more-institutional-capture-pro-lifers-this-time

Long thread about the current court case:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/feminism/4289660-Late-term-abortion-high-court

I believe the appeal decision is due some time in October. They won't win but it may well prompt a new private members bill on abortion time limits.

@Fivemoreminutesinbed she doesn’t seem to have a grasp of the facts at all, she never engages with the points in favour of this law and instead just reverts back to ‘but it’s unfair’.

Her son is very small and she seems to have thrown herself into the world of disability campaigning without much experience behind her of caring for a disabled child. At this age I expect it’s a very different ball game to having a teen/young adult.

@LangClegsInSpace Dominic Lawson is in favour of scrapping prenatal testing altogether (how dare he) and has written numerous articles to this effect.

Are people ok with testing being rolled out for deafness, visual impairment, autism, growth anomalies? Because if it’s ok to abort due to Down Syndrome then surely it’s ok to eradicate those conditions too? If not, why not?
Either every foetus has the right to be carried to term or none have that right, is where I’m coming from.
I’m uneasy about the hijacking of the Don’t Screen Us Out campaign by pro lifers, but equally uneasy about the prevalent attitude that DS is something every woman would like to eradicate from society. That as soon as that test result comes through, you’d need to get on the abortion track asap.

@Saucery but if either all of them do or none of them do, then you’re in favour of banning abortion completely?

No, as I said before, whatever limits there are should be equal. My line is “ a woman’s right to choose” and that should be as early as possible / as late as necessary. For every woman and every foetus. Not different limits because society has decreed that the life of someone with Down Syndrome is worth less than the life of someone without Down Syndrome.

I'd be fine with that level of screening and for every woman to be able to make an informed choice about whether to continue their pregnancy as they do now with the conditions that we do screen for.

Woman should have the choice at every stage.

Should I get pregnant, yes or no? With free, easy, unrestricted access to contraception to prevent it if the answer is no.

I'm pregnant, do I want to be, yes or no? With free, easy, unrestricted access to abortion services if the answer is no and antenatal care if the answer is yes.

Do I want the 10wk booking in bloods, yes or no? With information provided on why the tests are carried out and what the potential consequences of declining could be.

Do I want a 12wk scan, yes or no? With information provided on the pros and cons of having the scan.

If I take the 12wk scan do I want them to check the nuchal fold, yes or no? As above.

Do I want to 16wk screening bloods, yes or no? Again with information provided as above.

Do I want a 20wk anamoly scan, yes or no? With information provided as above.

If I have the scan and it picks up an issue do I want further testing, yes or no? With access to the appropriate medical staff and information with pros and cons presented impartially.

If a problem is detected so I want to continue ue the pregnancy, yes or no? With access to all relevant information, support services, and so on whether the decision is yes or no.

Women should be free to make their choice at every stage of pregnancy and it is their own business. At all stages they should have unhindered access to the relevant services needed no matter which direction their choice takes them.