To pull DD if the class is above 30 pupils?

[unicormb]

DD is down to go to the local primary v close to our home, when we visited before the summer we were told that this reception intake was a low birth year, and that as such there would be two smaller classes of 20 pupils, where there would normally be two classes of 30. This was painted to us as a good thing, and obviously it would be... if it were true.

All the paperwork came through at the end of term and it turns out there is only going to be one reception class after all. As an ex teacher my gut is telling me that due to budgeting they've decided to stick 40 kids in one class with one teacher and an extra TA, rather than splitting across two.

I don't want my child in a class with 40 other kids, especially for her very first year of school. 30/31 I accept as the norm, but over that I think it will be very very busy and confusing for her, she only just turned 4.

Apparently the teacher is ringing me this coming week (instead of home visit) WIBU to enquire on class numbers and de-register DD if they are intending to do as I feared? DD is summer born and I could have them home with me while we wait for a better placement to come up.

What on earth are you talking about? Of course you can legally go over 30 children with no extra teacher! I've taught for 16 years and have gone beyond 30 on a few occasions! I've taught EYFS and KS1.
Many children get through on appeal, I've had twins get in on appeal which takes it up to 31.

One teacher one TA

All of our children made amazing progress, and no parent moaned about the size of the class!

We had a similar issue when my child was due to move to reception.
The school she was in had a separate early years block, with the nursery and reception classrooms in it.
The school governors sent letters to the parents of children over the 30 limit while they were still in the nurser, telling them they did not have a place in reception, but the head teacher then sent his own letter, telling them he would find them space.

When questioned about how he proposed to satisfy the statutory limit of 30, he told us that when it came to the register, he’d simply make sure the doors to both the reception and nursery classrooms would be open and “extra” children would conveniently be in the other classroom.

We moved our daughter out of the school quick smart.

Possibly, but then you say she’s only just turned 4. They might have not wanted to put a summer born child in with Y1 regardless of whether she is identified as gifted, they might have decided to only consider putting up the brightest of the kids born in the Autumn term.

But anyway I suppose we could all sit here and ponder or make suggestions all day but only way to know for sure is to email the school which you have done; hopefully you get a reply on Tuesday and are able to make a decision about what to do.

Only in the case of excepted pupils (such as the twin taking it to 31) who are, in legislation, not counted in the 30:1 ratio.

Actually, missing Reception Class does have an impact. Children will absolutely not be ready for Year 1 as they will not have completed the Early Years Foundation Stage Profile or achieved their Early Learning Goals.
No nursery will cover the curriculum that a Reception Class does. Reception covers so much which then feeds directly into Year 1 and gives them the confidence and experience to tackle Ks1 curriculum.
Pre-School do not arrange their curriculum coverage to prepare their children for Year 1!!!

You are definitely kidding yourself if you think missing out an entire school year and going straight into Year 1 won't hold them back...

You are depriving them of having a wonderful experience in school, making new friendships and learning the mechanisms of school life.

God, that's sad!!!

Has DD not been for taster sessions at the school or a stay and play? I thought most schools ran them so the school and class is not completely alien to them.

This happened to us this past year. The school normally has 2 classes of 30 children per year, however my DC Reception class started with 38 children and increased to 41 during the year. Few were SEN children and had special provisions. The class had a qualified teacher, a teacher in training, and 3 TAs/nursery staff.
I was perplexed when I heard the size of the class, but it turned out to work out well , DC learnt and enjoyed.
For year 1 the children have been split in 2 classes of 20 pupils each.
As far as I know, the Reception starting in September is going to have 2 classes of 20 kids each, but there will be a free flow type of arrangement (all kids together, with separate carpet time).

If that were the case my daughter would be in one of those fast streamed to year one classes, she's exceptionally bright and already flagged as gifted

They are very unlikely to put her into the Year 1 class because of her age, even if she is already flagged as gifted. If they have put some children with Year 1 it's more likely to be the older and brighter ones as opposed to the very bright youngest ones who would be almost 2 years younger than the oldest year 1s.

Find out the exact numbers in the class. Then decide what you want to do. YANBU to find another school for your child if you think there are too many children in the class.

What's sad is your conviction that all small kids have 'a wonderful experience in school'. Some do, absolutely. Many don't. Sadly, school trauma is rather more common than perhaps primary teachers realise.

We deferred school starting age after taking advice on what was best for our daughter, and it was absolutely the right thing to do for her. She was, in fact, ahead in all academic areas when she started school, and had had the nurture she happened to need given our family situation at the time, which would have been impossible in a school. Our situation was actually pretty extreme, for reasons I won't bore people with, but I don't think it needs to be extreme. It just needs to be the right choice for that child.

Thinking 30 plus kids all need the same thing at 4-5 is really odd. Child development just doesn't work that way - which is why different countries approach it differently, and many don't begin formal learning until later. We do of course have to serve the norm, but many, many kids won't do well with that norm. And don't, in fact.

Preschools vary wildly, in fairness. Ours was amazing, having been a community one which was recently headed (parent committee) by a fantastic ed psych - not only in practice, but lecturing at the local university. So yes, it was pretty optimal across all learning domains, and I knew my daughter was better there - that specific child, in that situation, needed what she got there, and wouldn't have got from a school.

Parents, on the whole, tend to know what their own children need infinitely better than most teachers can begin to. And quite rightly - we only have a tiny number of them, for years, and a very different role, whereas teachers have to serve hundreds of kids across decades. I tend to feel the relationships go better when each side respects the expertise of the other. Luckily, my daughter's brilliant Year One teacher was in agreement.

My dd2 was in a Reception class of 31. She had the Head of EYFS as her class teacher, a class TA and one child had a 1:1 LSA. I think the child who had the 1:1 may have had an EHCP which is why the maximum number was allowed to go over the limit!

I've heard my old school is combining last year's 2 Y5 classes into 1 Y6 class this year. There were 36 children over 2 classes last I knew. But a few were supposed to be leaving. Obviously that's KS2, so no limit applies.

OP in your shoes, I would not be happy with a class of 40 children unless there were 2 qualified teachers full time. And I don't mean 1 TA or HLTA with QTS either. As they wouldn't be being paid as much as a teacher would, so I wouldn't expect the same level of responsibility from them.

Doe anybody know if Y5 can be 41 child with 1 teacher and 3 TAs? That's what happened in my DC class. I am appalled, but we have been told that this is allowed 🤯

This I do agree with. My daughter could read and do maths in preschool, but struggled a lot with emotional regulation, and needed less, and not more, structure to help with that while she matured a bit.

Learning covers so many areas. Social understanding and self regulation are often harder to master than academics, for quite a few children. And those sorts of skills are far less likely to come naturally at 4, than 5.

No in eyfs and KS1 you can’t go over 30.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/10/note/made?fbclid=IwAR28PH5ZzuSbU3U-1-6DqjY_m32Qwgmu-S5puUUUmQZhzA2tsMpq8CUjuEs

Oh and during Covid when we often had staff off sick, we regularly combined 2 classes in the year group. So 1 teacher would have up to 40 children in 1 classroom. With 1 TA usually. Again, an undersubscribed school so hardly any classes of 30 to begin with.

This happened in Y2, Y4 and Y5 so both KS1 and KS2.

I wouldn’t send her if it is indeed a class of 40. Mine were in a class of 31, and even with a dedicated ta it was controlled chaos on the days I was in volunteering. The teachers were excellent, but most of their time was spent managing flows of children and relatively little time spent teaching/ virtually no 1:1 support. I think most children got by, but can’t see anyone thriving in that environment. Mine were also on the younger side, and it was a real struggle for them having previously been happy confident kids in nursery. We ultimately switched schools where they are now thriving.

Yes, it can. In fact, there's no legal requirement to have the three TAs in there. It could just be the teacher. Not a good situation but, unfortunately, it's one that we may see replicated across more of the UK given the persistent and deliberate underfunding of education.

Well yes, but that was a ‘firefighting’ measure not an active decision for the year.

The law also says that if a child has an EHCP, any school named on that EHCP has no choice but to take the child, unless they are an independent school (and not one registered as what is called s41, or a 'non-maintained special school', either).

And there are appeal grounds for eg twins, or where a village school is the only one for miles, where schools lose and have to take a child, even when full. I live in an area with a lot of village schools, and that's not unusual when they have a large bulge with siblings, for instance. The LA aren't about to fund a taxi for the sibling who loses, which would be their legal duty otherwise!

Theory and practice are often very different in education. Bluntly, when it comes to eg SEN all LAs break the law systematically, because their duties aren't met with the necessary funding. Unlawfulness is the norm.

Kids are being taught by TAs now because the school budgets are so slashed. And I was told that by a very disheartened, and lovely, worker at our LA. She said she is hearing it more and more. That's not to denigrate the excellent work TAs do - but teaching is a Masters level degree for a reason.

The LA aren't about to fund a taxi for the sibling who loses, which would be their legal duty otherwise!

We are a village school and we had sibling miss out when our whole cohort was siblings only and there were too many to accommodate. They had to go to other schools. We did not take extra.

It would only count as an exception if it was an in-year sibling (twin or a very quick follow up pregnancy after a September / October birth). Siblings of other children in different year groups aren't automatically exceptions, though parents can appeal that and sometimes find success.

Yes, I know. I taught reception for 6 years. I was replying to the person who said that there was no such rule.

Could you stretch and go for a private prep for small classes?

but teaching is a Masters level degree for a reason.

I don’t have a masters……

Sorry I assumed it was meaning siblings in general. Ours were all siblings in the same class, not the same year group but siblings in the class.