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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To wonder how people will financially survive?

829 replies

Cupcakeicecream · 25/08/2022 14:00

To think that many people are struggling already. Food price rises, gas and electric costs. The general cost of living due to inflation from either brexit since the pandemic and Ukraine war. But come on some people were struggling before any of those factors. Financially people will be pushed to breaking christmas will be off the cards general life will stagnate no meals out leisure activities cinema socialising new clothes treat foods. The threat of blackouts and wondering how we will pay bills to keep warm or keep a house running. Never mind buying food the price of it plus the large gaps on shelves. Winter will be miserable. It's becoming impossible to live in this country.

OP posts:
ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 07:33

As a society we need to get back to accepting personal responsibility and standing on our own two feet - many ask for "the government" to "help" (ie take money from others and redistribute it to them) but this isn't sustainable and we're a weaker society because of it.

working a 40 hour week and not earning enough wages on NMW to heat a home without going into debt, whilst others in the divide of wealth are able to make billions from the workers is just not sustainable any longer.

you may kid yourself that those at the bottom and now the middle are just not working hard enough, need ti work more than 40 hours a week and should just endure the poverty

but there are many that have had enough of the greedy at the top eating 95% if the cake and shouting at the works that they are lazy

safetyfreak · 29/08/2022 07:35

We could take the hit as the squeezed middle, but it would mean little disposable income so no days out etc. We might as well be better off on benefits at that point

ShelfyMcShelfface · 29/08/2022 07:59

safetyfreak · 29/08/2022 07:35

We could take the hit as the squeezed middle, but it would mean little disposable income so no days out etc. We might as well be better off on benefits at that point

True. Why work just to pay the basics.

The next issue is all the businesses that we usually fund. The hairdressers, cafes, activity centres, coffee shops, theatres. What happens when their customer base drops by 90%?

Thisismynamenow · 29/08/2022 07:59

safetyfreak · 29/08/2022 07:35

We could take the hit as the squeezed middle, but it would mean little disposable income so no days out etc. We might as well be better off on benefits at that point

Problem is, even the lower half of the squeezed middle is unable to afford the bills in January.
It's predicted to hit 92p per kwh of electric next summer - it was around 17p at the beginning of the year.

No amounts of usage cutting will make that affordable for anyone but those who had over 7k+ of spare money per year.

Let not forget the cap doesn't include businesses. Our local chippy is closing because their bill reached £65k.

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 08:28

It's predicted to hit 92p per kwh of electric next summer - it was around 17p at the beginning of the year.

that's like petrol being £1.65 a litre now and next January being £8.92 so filling a 50 later tank on a car would cost £446

Thisismynamenow · 29/08/2022 08:33

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 08:28

It's predicted to hit 92p per kwh of electric next summer - it was around 17p at the beginning of the year.

that's like petrol being £1.65 a litre now and next January being £8.92 so filling a 50 later tank on a car would cost £446

I'm sure I heard its like a pint becoming £15 or something like that.

Just utterly unaffordable

Kashmirsilver · 29/08/2022 08:43

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 07:33

As a society we need to get back to accepting personal responsibility and standing on our own two feet - many ask for "the government" to "help" (ie take money from others and redistribute it to them) but this isn't sustainable and we're a weaker society because of it.

working a 40 hour week and not earning enough wages on NMW to heat a home without going into debt, whilst others in the divide of wealth are able to make billions from the workers is just not sustainable any longer.

you may kid yourself that those at the bottom and now the middle are just not working hard enough, need ti work more than 40 hours a week and should just endure the poverty

but there are many that have had enough of the greedy at the top eating 95% if the cake and shouting at the works that they are lazy

The problem with your argument is the Nihlisitc viewpoint, all sectors are seeing high levels of demand. Hospitality, leisure, and tourism are seeing high demand. Basically, people ARE holidaying, eating, and drinking. Spending.
The government also knows that saving levels are at a record high due to lockdown suppression and free money handouts during covid.
In the end, economics is about people's behavioral choices, society will make different decisions on where to spend their money. This will mean some businesses may fail but others will flourish. It's a perfectly normal economic cycle post-pandemic.

There is a stark difference between what is happening and the social media commentary on what ought to or may happen.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 08:47

@ivykaty44

*"you may kid yourself that those at the bottom and now the middle are just not working hard enough, need ti work more than 40 hours a week and should just endure the poverty

but there are many that have had enough of the greedy at the top eating 95% if the cake and shouting at the works that they are lazy"*

It's not about people being lazy or needing to work longer hours. It's about doing what's needed to be self-sufficient. That could be a whole host of things centred on living lives that are affordable and secure (E.g. seeking higher incomes, promotion, lowering costs, putting money away for tough times, "knuckling down"). I think the issue is as a society we've become accustomed to shouting for (and getting) "government help" which had put us in a weaker place.

I've been fortunate enough to have lived overseas with work (Eastern Europe, Central Asia) and when you contrast mindset there to here is humbling. I recall being so depressed when I moved back after E Europe as everywhere here there was a sense of entitlement that just doesn't exist there.

Grumpybutfunny · 29/08/2022 08:59

@ivykaty44 is a NMW job realistically something to support yourself on. Maybe attitudes need to change with NMW being those aimed at young adults still living at home doing it for the experience and pocket money.

Where do people think the money to fund the government basically paying for our energy should come from?

Our solar array should be enough to power the house all year round (will have the data this time next year) if the government offered interest free loans for the near 10k it has cost over say 10 years that would be £83 a month much less than the current predicted energy bills and it's sustainable. It could even be linked to the house so passes to the next owner if the house is sold. A scheme for landlords where they can add the cost to the rent and the tenants get free electric is also an option. That would protect a lot of the middle class from the price increase, which in turn would protect the businesses they support. If we apply the price cap to businesses aswell we would be in a much better position. The cost of the loans would likely be less than the current handouts.

We need to remember this isn't just about stopping people being cold over winter (it's winter it's going to be cold!!!) but about stopping this having an effect on the overall economy as far as possible. Millionaires manage to live in old Victorian houses that are never warm perfectly fine. They do it because they wouldn't dream of wasting the money keeping such big spaces excessively warm.

Tigerblue4 · 29/08/2022 09:01

The problem with too many people seeking higher incomes/looking for promotion is that if those jobs are around, who are going to do those essential jobs that we rely on, cleaners, shop workers, nursery assistants, lunchtime supervisors, care assistant etc. You move up the scale slightly, and who's going to drive that bus you take to work. We need people to do those lower paid jobs.

Fivemoreminutesinbed · 29/08/2022 09:15

Babyroobs · 29/08/2022 01:22

I went to my local Tesco express this evening and watched two blokes load numerous items into carrier bags and walk out of the store. They were not even trying to be discrete. I have not seen this happen before and to be honest was a bit shocked. Tesco employee just shrugged and said there's nothing he could do once they've walked out. I was shocked at that too.

I suspect most of the shoplifters aren't doing it because they are hungry but to sell on to others for cash.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 09:16

Tigerblue4 · 29/08/2022 09:01

The problem with too many people seeking higher incomes/looking for promotion is that if those jobs are around, who are going to do those essential jobs that we rely on, cleaners, shop workers, nursery assistants, lunchtime supervisors, care assistant etc. You move up the scale slightly, and who's going to drive that bus you take to work. We need people to do those lower paid jobs.

We do. And we'll always have less experienced period willing to take in those roles. They're called young adults that have less responsibilities (thus outgoings) and need the experience to help them develop and grow.

It's a natural progression that many people follow that seems to work (eg I've worked in hospitality, cleaning, parcel sorting when younger before gaining qualifications).

The issue is when people get stuck and / or believe it's ok to stay in those roles, expecting the roles themselves to pay more rather than changing roles to gain more pay.

Kashmirsilver · 29/08/2022 09:22

Tigerblue4 · 29/08/2022 09:01

The problem with too many people seeking higher incomes/looking for promotion is that if those jobs are around, who are going to do those essential jobs that we rely on, cleaners, shop workers, nursery assistants, lunchtime supervisors, care assistant etc. You move up the scale slightly, and who's going to drive that bus you take to work. We need people to do those lower paid jobs.

That's the cycle of the workplace. Most enter the workplace with no skills, learn, upskill, then move on. The issue with the NMW is this has slowed this process, as some less skilled jobs are overpaid, and some jobs are now underpaid. Its homogenized and bundled categories of jobs together. A large sector of employees is paid the same regardless of intrinsic value.
I honestly don't know how we remove that self-inflicted problem-its made the employment market rigid and flat for those entering employment for the first time. Moving upwards is also a problem.
Although my brother has managed to find paid employment after realizing his lifestyle business wasn't the best choice during these times. He's happier and is now planning trips and other extraneous spending rather than worrying about his income. Stabilty.

Grumpybutfunny · 29/08/2022 09:27

@Tigerblue4 it would be the young adults living at home with minimum out goings or those at uni wanting to supplement student loans. You also have those at the other side of the scale who have maybe took early retirement and although they have a pension need/want a little something on top. I did the NMW jobs from being 16 until I graduated at 22 have worked my way up the pay scales ever since. It's the same for friends who went to college over uni, they started out as say a Saturday girl in the hairdressers now a lead stylist or the plumber apprentice that now owns his own firm.

It's not always people fault for getting stuck at the bottom of the pay scales things like childcare need to be properly funded so people don't have to take day 15 hours around school days.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 09:51

"That's the cycle of the workplace. Most enter the workplace with no skills, learn, upskill, then move on. The issue with the NMW is this has slowed this process, as some less skilled jobs are overpaid, and some jobs are now underpaid. Its homogenized and bundled categories of jobs together. A large sector of employees is paid the same regardless of intrinsic value.
I honestly don't know how we remove that self-inflicted problem-its made the employment market rigid and flat for those entering employment for the first time. Moving upwards is also a problem.
Although my brother has managed to find paid employment after realizing his lifestyle business wasn't the best choice during these times. He's happier and is now planning trips and other extraneous spending rather than worrying about his income. Stabilty."

Well @Kashmirsilver !

Reference the issue being it often results in some roles being overpaid (and others underpaid), I've often wondered if it should be considered somewhat similar to how "STEM" courses are treated ie they're funded / protected more by the government.

In reality it think this could mean different "minimum wages" for different roles (with those that "contribute" to society - clearly which do / don't will be heavily debated however similar debates have been settled historically E.g. STEM - having a higher minimum wage {eg to encourage people into them} than those that don't). An alternative could be the national minimum wage applies only to certain roles that society needs to function.

I don't think any option will be palatable as someone will always be worse off / offended in either option so firmly agree society has created a rod for its own back (and I don't know what the solution is!).

It maybe also needs a reframing of what NMW is intended to cover. Given, by definition, it's the minimum someone can be paid, there probably needs to be acceptance that this amount is not going to be sufficient (on its own) to cover more than the bare minimum responsibilities (with those not being luxuries such as raising kids, owning a home, holidaying etc). Not a popular opinion I'm sure but I can't help but think we expect too much from the minimum

CeeJay81 · 29/08/2022 09:59

Well that'd me stuffed. I've only been able to do minimum wage type jobs due to anxiety(I'm 41 btw). Noone would hire me in anything else cause I couldnt cope with it. People would laugh if I even tried to apply for a team leader job where I work. Not everyone was lucky enough to have done well at school and been able to get further. There is no support out there for people that struggle with mental health. Now I've heard it all. Not only is being able to cope with a job not enough, now we are expected to have to get promotions etc too. Might as well just give up and commit suicide it seems.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 10:08

I empathise @CeeJay81 and it seems you've done fantastically well achieving what you've achieved so far & deserve more support to help with your anxiety. Given it's being ongoing for so long it possibly would classify as a disability meaning you should be entitled to support and your employer might be obligated to help.

CeeJay81 · 29/08/2022 10:25

@TakeTheOffPisteRoute I was on disability benefit for periods a long time ago but now I can cope with working, I don't need that. I have found job I can do. Should you get help just because you can't cope with a managerial job or a a job with more responsibility? Is earning less than 30k a year going to become the new "get off your arse you lazy cow and earn more", just like the daily mail reader would say about people not working.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 10:32

CeeJay81 · 29/08/2022 10:25

@TakeTheOffPisteRoute I was on disability benefit for periods a long time ago but now I can cope with working, I don't need that. I have found job I can do. Should you get help just because you can't cope with a managerial job or a a job with more responsibility? Is earning less than 30k a year going to become the new "get off your arse you lazy cow and earn more", just like the daily mail reader would say about people not working.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying people should align expectations and lifestyles with what work they do (rather than expect to have more than a minimum standard of living for a lifetime spent on a minimum wage), recognising everyone has the choice of doing more / less (and at different points in their career as pp as said) as they choose.

Bloodybridget · 29/08/2022 10:39

I just revised our monthly budget, and even not allowing for huge price rises over the next year, I reckon we're spending about £500 more a month than is going into our joint account - we've just upped our individual contributions to that too! We're both retired, DP has much more private pension than I do and puts more into the account, but I don't want her subsidising me too much. We're not extravagant . . we'll have to plan for this somehow.

Kashmirsilver · 29/08/2022 10:55

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 09:51

"That's the cycle of the workplace. Most enter the workplace with no skills, learn, upskill, then move on. The issue with the NMW is this has slowed this process, as some less skilled jobs are overpaid, and some jobs are now underpaid. Its homogenized and bundled categories of jobs together. A large sector of employees is paid the same regardless of intrinsic value.
I honestly don't know how we remove that self-inflicted problem-its made the employment market rigid and flat for those entering employment for the first time. Moving upwards is also a problem.
Although my brother has managed to find paid employment after realizing his lifestyle business wasn't the best choice during these times. He's happier and is now planning trips and other extraneous spending rather than worrying about his income. Stabilty."

Well @Kashmirsilver !

Reference the issue being it often results in some roles being overpaid (and others underpaid), I've often wondered if it should be considered somewhat similar to how "STEM" courses are treated ie they're funded / protected more by the government.

In reality it think this could mean different "minimum wages" for different roles (with those that "contribute" to society - clearly which do / don't will be heavily debated however similar debates have been settled historically E.g. STEM - having a higher minimum wage {eg to encourage people into them} than those that don't). An alternative could be the national minimum wage applies only to certain roles that society needs to function.

I don't think any option will be palatable as someone will always be worse off / offended in either option so firmly agree society has created a rod for its own back (and I don't know what the solution is!).

It maybe also needs a reframing of what NMW is intended to cover. Given, by definition, it's the minimum someone can be paid, there probably needs to be acceptance that this amount is not going to be sufficient (on its own) to cover more than the bare minimum responsibilities (with those not being luxuries such as raising kids, owning a home, holidaying etc). Not a popular opinion I'm sure but I can't help but think we expect too much from the minimum

I agree entirely, however, the social outcry was, that employers were underpaying. So min wage was introduced instead of market rates. Now min wage is falling short for those who work in those sectors. A business has the government deciding its wage costs. It's fixed.
Obviously, those being paid min wage are extremely vulnerable to existential events like the pandemic and its aftereffects. The usual answer would be to upskill, however that not available for some on min wage, the alternative is more hrs. Again impractically unpalatable for some.

SerendipityJane · 29/08/2022 11:15

So min wage was introduced instead of market rates.

And when that wasn't enough, the idea of a living wage had to be invented. If society choses to use money as a proxy for peoples worth (which is has, by the way. There's not opting out of that) then you have to answer the question what do you do when some people are worth less than it costs to live ?

I'm not 100% sure voting for Tories led by Boris Johnson is an appropriate answer to that question.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 11:28

SerendipityJane · 29/08/2022 11:15

So min wage was introduced instead of market rates.

And when that wasn't enough, the idea of a living wage had to be invented. If society choses to use money as a proxy for peoples worth (which is has, by the way. There's not opting out of that) then you have to answer the question what do you do when some people are worth less than it costs to live ?

I'm not 100% sure voting for Tories led by Boris Johnson is an appropriate answer to that question.

That's the issue @SerendipityJane and entirely wrong, people (you in this case) are linking how much someone gets paid to what they're worth which is entirely not the case (and I'm assuming I don't need to explain why).

What is linked to how much an individual gets paid (by that particular employer for that particular role) is the value of the role not the value of the individual. I think it's easy to see that some roles add minimal value but still "need" done*.

By having a minimum wage you're forcing a business to pay more than the value of the role (again, not the person!) which skews the economics eg someone may have been happy to accept £3/hour for it, if they enjoy it and don't need the money etc but instead the employer is having to pay NMW, ultimately meaning there's less money to pay others.

By adding in these artificial levels (NMW) which of course don't work in all cases, you get caught in a spiral of having to introduce others (LW) to solve the problem but in reality they won't in all cases so more will need to be introduced.... creating a very constrained and bureaucratic market place that's difficult to operate efficiently and costly to administer (both for the employer and the "govt" ie the general public paying taxes).

*years ago whilst on holiday in Cornwall, I once saw - what looked like a student - whose job was to add the cardboard tags to each bottle of cider by manually "poking" a thread through a small hole then attaching it to the bottle and it stuck in my mind. Clearly this job isn’t essential, takes 0 skills to do, has minimal responsibly nor stress, adds limited value to the overall product yet… nowadays the business would be required to pay minimum wage (vastly more than the value the role generates) meaning they probably wouldn’t, so there’s now no easy summer job for the student to do!!

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 11:34

Grumpybutfunny

why should anyone have to work 40 hrs a week and then go cap in hand due to not having enough to live on

take home pay of £1350/1400 and heating at £800 a month and rent at £800 isn’t going to stretch

people want to earn a living not a fucking pittance

Babyroobs · 29/08/2022 11:45

Thisismynamenow · 29/08/2022 07:59

Problem is, even the lower half of the squeezed middle is unable to afford the bills in January.
It's predicted to hit 92p per kwh of electric next summer - it was around 17p at the beginning of the year.

No amounts of usage cutting will make that affordable for anyone but those who had over 7k+ of spare money per year.

Let not forget the cap doesn't include businesses. Our local chippy is closing because their bill reached £65k.

We probably could have afforded the extra but now helping one son with Uni costs and another possibly going to Uni next year, although I'm trying to persuade dd to take a gap year so we don't have two at Uni at the same time. The teenage years are just so expensive. At least one is in halls for now so bills included. This time next year will be seriously difficult especially as I am on a one year fixed contract which ends in May. I feel we are going to have whole mumsnet threads full of people despairing with the cold and hunger. very sad times.