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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To wonder how people will financially survive?

829 replies

Cupcakeicecream · 25/08/2022 14:00

To think that many people are struggling already. Food price rises, gas and electric costs. The general cost of living due to inflation from either brexit since the pandemic and Ukraine war. But come on some people were struggling before any of those factors. Financially people will be pushed to breaking christmas will be off the cards general life will stagnate no meals out leisure activities cinema socialising new clothes treat foods. The threat of blackouts and wondering how we will pay bills to keep warm or keep a house running. Never mind buying food the price of it plus the large gaps on shelves. Winter will be miserable. It's becoming impossible to live in this country.

OP posts:
antelopevalley · 28/08/2022 17:22

I have found places to be quieter. We went camping where we go most years and everywhere we went was much less busy than usual.
But places with money will still and will continue to be busy.

woodhill · 28/08/2022 17:28

MarshaBradyo · 28/08/2022 16:49

Verdant I agree the strain on businesses is concerning, especially after saving so many in the pandemic

I would have made different choices and not used so much spending then to save more now. I thought it a mistake then, and still do now.

but still lockdown is not a word I would use.

The interest rates have been so awful until now so savings weren't earning much

Graftersunite · 28/08/2022 17:35

Personally I'll likely have to break the law to survive. I'm a single parent and non essentials were cut out a long time ago. There's nothing left to cut back on, other than income tax as I'm self employed. Always declared every penny but that will have to change, I'll be offering discounts to those paying for my services in cash. Nothing else for it really, can't work any more hours than I already do and can't earn more money doing anything other that what I do 🤷‍♀️. Its a risk I'll have to take.
Others I imagine will also be forced to break the law, theft will go through the roof, I'd certainly steal food if my child was hungry.

QuebecBagnet · 28/08/2022 17:42

Even if VAT is cut will retailers pass it on?

Like when they took some money off fuel duty and the petrol prices didn’t fall (I know they have now but that’s related to cost not fuel duty).

so it might have no effect other than absorbing rising costs for businesses (no bad thing) though for some it will be increasing profits to the detriment of the consumer.

antelopevalley · 28/08/2022 18:30

Businesses are going to be struggling so it will not make sense for them to pass on the vat cut.

Zumatalaa · 28/08/2022 18:38

Won't trouble me at all.

But also, I didn't vote for Johnson or Brexit.

SerendipityJane · 28/08/2022 18:40

If you are still a supporter of this Government and the Conservative party at this stage, you are a fucking idiot and a ghoul.

But Jeremy Corbyn ....

blahblahblahspoons · 28/08/2022 19:15

@verdantverdure Thanks for confirming what I suspected about the estimates from my electricity provider - that the 2k is based on prices now and the 5+k is essentially what they're predicting for next year (it was a fix to Oct 2023).

We are reasonably off and can afford the 2k but not the 5+k. We both work. Our jobs have offered 6% (the lower salary) and 3% (the higher salary) as pay rises. It won't even touch the edges. We do not have massive savings. I'm wondering whether one of us will be made redundant (one of the jobs is definitely in more of a 'luxury' sector that people might cut).

The VAT cut is interesting. I think so many will be economising that the VAT revenue will decrease massively so maybe it's better to cut it and encourage people to keep spending (which will at least prop up businesses). I'm hoping serious economists are looking at this as so many factors will come to play.

Those on this thread saying rich people won't be affected, I simply don't see how that is going to be possible. If the lower 50-75% of the population actually can't afford the basics then there won't be people to serve the rich people. Why bother working in a min wage service job if it's not even covering your heating?

SerendipityJane · 28/08/2022 19:29

Those on this thread saying rich people won't be affected, I simply don't see how that is going to be possible.

Depends how you define "rich". I suspect your idea, and the governments idea are poles apart.

blahblahblahspoons · 28/08/2022 19:58

I always wonder about this. Yes the 1% won't be as badly affected but anyone actually living, and their family living, in the UK, they will be affected unless they live in a castle with a moat and don't use any healthcare, transport, or services. You can have private health but it still needs people to work there and there's no private A&E / ambulances as far as I'm aware..

If petrol prices increase massively then people in low wage jobs may find the cost of transport to work is greater than they'll earn in work. This sort of thing already happens already to some extent e.g. parents who find that it's not worth returning to work because childcare costs will be greater than take home pay / part-timers who don't go to full-time because childcare costs will be greater than extra pay, people who are working and on benefits where doing extra hours is not worth it because of the loss of benefits.

I also wonder at what point people will start rioting.

Needwine999 · 28/08/2022 20:19

I am hoping we can not use heating and just wear extra layers, light candles rather than using lights, this is going to be tough

plinkplinkfizzer · 28/08/2022 20:52

@Needwine999 I am already using candles in my sitting room , tv is already gone to holiday mode . I won't be using the heating this winter . I have a serious lung condition so I hope I will be alright . As pp mentioned I because I receive PIP I get a paltry sum of £150 help the end of next month .

SerendipityJane · 28/08/2022 21:26

If petrol prices increase massively then people in low wage jobs may find the cost of transport to work is greater than they'll earn in work.

They'll just have to work harder then won't they ?

I also wonder at what point people will start rioting.

Although much disproved, the boiling frog analogy does seem to fit people behaviour. If they weren't going to take to the streets over the various outrages of the past few years, why start now ? Anyway, I'm guessing our media - who have a very vested interest in making sure the pitchforks are aimed well away from their paymasters - haven't yet run out of squirrels scapegoats. Maybe it's the fault of the meek ? After all they've been suspiciously quiet these past few years.

TheABC · 28/08/2022 23:03

I was wondering about riots and why we have so few in this country and went googling....

This article came up. www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/the-psychology-of-riots-and-why-its-never-just-mindless-violence-125676

The hypothesis is that riots are triggered by specific circumstances corresponding to group identity, underlying causes and geographical proximity.

If that's the case, we can expect riots when a) there are enough people identifying with grievance to cause criminal damage and
b) they get together.

So France gets more riots because they've got more angry group meeting more frequently.

I can see localised problems kicking off here but anything more would need to factor in the cost of fuel...

verdantverdure · 28/08/2022 23:12

blahblahblahspoons · 28/08/2022 19:15

@verdantverdure Thanks for confirming what I suspected about the estimates from my electricity provider - that the 2k is based on prices now and the 5+k is essentially what they're predicting for next year (it was a fix to Oct 2023).

We are reasonably off and can afford the 2k but not the 5+k. We both work. Our jobs have offered 6% (the lower salary) and 3% (the higher salary) as pay rises. It won't even touch the edges. We do not have massive savings. I'm wondering whether one of us will be made redundant (one of the jobs is definitely in more of a 'luxury' sector that people might cut).

The VAT cut is interesting. I think so many will be economising that the VAT revenue will decrease massively so maybe it's better to cut it and encourage people to keep spending (which will at least prop up businesses). I'm hoping serious economists are looking at this as so many factors will come to play.

Those on this thread saying rich people won't be affected, I simply don't see how that is going to be possible. If the lower 50-75% of the population actually can't afford the basics then there won't be people to serve the rich people. Why bother working in a min wage service job if it's not even covering your heating?

It's certainly going to be rough going. I just want to fast forward to the part where the government do something useful to help, so we know the real state of play we have to deal with.

In the meantime have you done the Which? calculator?

www.which.co.uk/news/article/energy-price-cap-rises-to-3549-how-will-it-affect-your-bills-aZkHR2p2t2P7

SerendipityJane · 28/08/2022 23:43

So France gets more riots because they've got more angry group meeting more frequently.

To be fair they also managed a successful revolution. Even if Liz Truss seems unsure about it all.

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2022 23:51

TheABC · 28/08/2022 23:03

I was wondering about riots and why we have so few in this country and went googling....

This article came up. www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/the-psychology-of-riots-and-why-its-never-just-mindless-violence-125676

The hypothesis is that riots are triggered by specific circumstances corresponding to group identity, underlying causes and geographical proximity.

If that's the case, we can expect riots when a) there are enough people identifying with grievance to cause criminal damage and
b) they get together.

So France gets more riots because they've got more angry group meeting more frequently.

I can see localised problems kicking off here but anything more would need to factor in the cost of fuel...

I've keep my eyes on this over the last few years and looked at what triggers riots. There are certain circumstances in which they almost always occur.

The big drivers of riots are youth unemployment rising above a certain level and food shortages.

Now this country (not including Ireland or Northern Ireland in this) hasn't seen a large scale food riot since 1766.

There was localised unrest in 1816 when there was a failure to have a summer and subsequent food shortages due to a failure of the harvest, all due to a volcanic eruption. Interestingly during this crisis, though there was famine and localised unrest, Britain still faired better than other European nations as they were able to import more grain than other countries thanks to the empire and the abolition of certain laws restricting imports.

Now the situation as we go into winter, does realistically lead to a situation where people have no food. Food banks won't be able to meet demand if the people who have usually donated are also financially struggling which seems likely to be the case. So then what?

If they weren't going to take to the streets over the various outrages of the past few years, why start now ?
There is talk that there will be loads more shop lifting and thefts, which is true, but when you get to the scale of the problem being suggested, even that isn't really viable. And this is where, the idea that even if you are better off you are going to escape this. People still have to go to the supermarket to get their own food. I can see people getting mugged in the car park for trolleys of food, though thats not going to be the approach many will want to take. Its simply a question of the sheer numbers of feeling desparate and being hungry. Once that reaches a certain level, there is an inevitability of unrest.

I simply don't buy into the idea that people will just 'suck it up' because they are British and they've taken previous crisis on the chin. They can't. That means SOMETHING will HAVE to give on a collective scale. And thats liable to be riots or looting incidents. I don't know whether you've seen CCTV footage of it happening in shops in some parts of the US in the last couple of years. Almost like social media led flash mobs. I suspect we will see something similar starting here. Middle classes, wanting to abide by the law are likely to join local protests instead but with tensions running high, I can see these getting out of hand in some towns and cities.

With Covid and Brexit we haven't simply seen a situation arise where there has been desparation to this level. There were concerns, but it never reached a crisis point at that level. There were scraps in some supermarkets over empty shelves but thats it. We've not seen things getting out of control here. People generally speaking saw the benefits to themselves to stay home and follow the rules. Why is anyone going to listen to the government when they can't feed their kids though?

Whether the government want to intervene or not is beside the point. The numbers are so frightening that its inconcievable for them to not do anything. The only question for me is whether they will go far enough. I remain unconvinced. People have to have food in their hands physically. Not promises of help and talk of tax cuts. Unless whatever is done has a real world impact, then it won't be enough. This isn't one where hot air and platitudes are going to be enough to stop unrest.

My worry at this point, is just how out of touch the government are, in terms of understanding the figures involved here and just how many people are going to be unable to pay bills and buy food. In the last 3 years the government has been very reactive rather than proactive in terms of 'reading the room' with the general public. I get the feeling this might be the one that breaks the camels back. The numbers are just that bad.

SerendipityJane · 29/08/2022 00:51

Whether the government want to intervene or not is beside the point.

As long as we're all fighting each other, why would they ? People being mugged for food in supermarket car parks ? I'm sure there's an as yet unscapegoated minority to point the masses at. And if not, just recycle something about Eastern Europeans, or the like. One thing this government has proved excellent in recycling is lies. Handgladed by the ever complicit media.

Babyroobs · 29/08/2022 01:22

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2022 23:51

I've keep my eyes on this over the last few years and looked at what triggers riots. There are certain circumstances in which they almost always occur.

The big drivers of riots are youth unemployment rising above a certain level and food shortages.

Now this country (not including Ireland or Northern Ireland in this) hasn't seen a large scale food riot since 1766.

There was localised unrest in 1816 when there was a failure to have a summer and subsequent food shortages due to a failure of the harvest, all due to a volcanic eruption. Interestingly during this crisis, though there was famine and localised unrest, Britain still faired better than other European nations as they were able to import more grain than other countries thanks to the empire and the abolition of certain laws restricting imports.

Now the situation as we go into winter, does realistically lead to a situation where people have no food. Food banks won't be able to meet demand if the people who have usually donated are also financially struggling which seems likely to be the case. So then what?

If they weren't going to take to the streets over the various outrages of the past few years, why start now ?
There is talk that there will be loads more shop lifting and thefts, which is true, but when you get to the scale of the problem being suggested, even that isn't really viable. And this is where, the idea that even if you are better off you are going to escape this. People still have to go to the supermarket to get their own food. I can see people getting mugged in the car park for trolleys of food, though thats not going to be the approach many will want to take. Its simply a question of the sheer numbers of feeling desparate and being hungry. Once that reaches a certain level, there is an inevitability of unrest.

I simply don't buy into the idea that people will just 'suck it up' because they are British and they've taken previous crisis on the chin. They can't. That means SOMETHING will HAVE to give on a collective scale. And thats liable to be riots or looting incidents. I don't know whether you've seen CCTV footage of it happening in shops in some parts of the US in the last couple of years. Almost like social media led flash mobs. I suspect we will see something similar starting here. Middle classes, wanting to abide by the law are likely to join local protests instead but with tensions running high, I can see these getting out of hand in some towns and cities.

With Covid and Brexit we haven't simply seen a situation arise where there has been desparation to this level. There were concerns, but it never reached a crisis point at that level. There were scraps in some supermarkets over empty shelves but thats it. We've not seen things getting out of control here. People generally speaking saw the benefits to themselves to stay home and follow the rules. Why is anyone going to listen to the government when they can't feed their kids though?

Whether the government want to intervene or not is beside the point. The numbers are so frightening that its inconcievable for them to not do anything. The only question for me is whether they will go far enough. I remain unconvinced. People have to have food in their hands physically. Not promises of help and talk of tax cuts. Unless whatever is done has a real world impact, then it won't be enough. This isn't one where hot air and platitudes are going to be enough to stop unrest.

My worry at this point, is just how out of touch the government are, in terms of understanding the figures involved here and just how many people are going to be unable to pay bills and buy food. In the last 3 years the government has been very reactive rather than proactive in terms of 'reading the room' with the general public. I get the feeling this might be the one that breaks the camels back. The numbers are just that bad.

I went to my local Tesco express this evening and watched two blokes load numerous items into carrier bags and walk out of the store. They were not even trying to be discrete. I have not seen this happen before and to be honest was a bit shocked. Tesco employee just shrugged and said there's nothing he could do once they've walked out. I was shocked at that too.

Babyroobs · 29/08/2022 01:23

Babyroobs · 29/08/2022 01:22

I went to my local Tesco express this evening and watched two blokes load numerous items into carrier bags and walk out of the store. They were not even trying to be discrete. I have not seen this happen before and to be honest was a bit shocked. Tesco employee just shrugged and said there's nothing he could do once they've walked out. I was shocked at that too.

Sorry that should say they just loaded multiple items into carriers at the chilled cabinet and just walked out without paying.

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 06:06

We are reasonably off and can afford the 2k but not the 5+k. We both work. Our jobs have offered 6% (the lower salary) and 3% (the higher salary) as pay rises. It won't even touch the edges.

that’s the crux of the issue, poor people at the bottom becomes reasonably well of people that these rises are touching. This means rather than a small number of people protesting , the number of people angry as it’s effecting them, becomes larger and protests swell in numbers.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 07:13

@Charlize43 what's wrong with them offering help in the form of debt? Ultimately if they offered it in a different form, someone else would be picking up the bill (possibly in the form of debt) which doesn't feel right.

As a society we need to get back to accepting personal responsibility and standing on our own two feet - many ask for "the government" to "help" (ie take money from others and redistribute it to them) but this isn't sustainable and we're a weaker society because of it.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 07:20

@Noname99

"that expecting ‘the govt’ to ‘do something’ with no impact on people is a spectacularly immature outlook in the face of Europe wide war"

Well said. We need to support Ukraine. We need to accept it will cause hardship as a consequence. We need to accept the U.K. isn't in some sort of privileged magic place that's immune from hardship. We need to accept the government can't (and shouldn't) solve everyone's problems for them. We're all personally responsible and we need to realise that and help eachother through it

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 07:24

NeedNotWantNot · 25/08/2022 16:57

People have unrealistic expectations. Living standards, even for people on the dole or state pension, are far higher than they were in the 1950s, 60s, 70s. There is no choice between heating and eating. It's eating. When I was a child we could not afford heating. We couldn't afford a duvet, and had mum's coat on top of the blankets. Ice would form on the inside of the windows overnight from the water vapour in out breath. No car, no phone, rented TV. Second hand shoes, or clothes. The hyperbolic language about being able to "survive" and it being "impossible to live", or going back to the 1920s or 1930s is ridiculous. People need to stop complaining and get a sense of proportion.

Well said!

RunningSME · 29/08/2022 07:25

Babyroobs · 29/08/2022 01:23

Sorry that should say they just loaded multiple items into carriers at the chilled cabinet and just walked out without paying.

Ive seen this alot recently… do you really think people will go hungry and look through the windows at stocked shelves? They cant put everyone in prison. Most jobs wouldn’t give a toot if you got a caution for shop lifting