Page 25 | To wonder how people will financially survive?

Cupcakeicecream · 2022-08-25T13:00:33+00:00

To think that many people are struggling already. Food price rises, gas and electric costs. The general cost of living due to inflation from either brexit since the pandemic and Ukraine war. But come on some people were struggling before any of those factors. Financially people will be pushed to breaking christmas will be off the cards general life will stagnate no meals out leisure activities cinema socialising new clothes treat foods. The threat of blackouts and wondering how we will pay bills to keep warm or keep a house running. Never mind buying food the price of it plus the large gaps on shelves. Winter will be miserable. It's becoming impossible to live in this country.

SerendipityJane · 29/08/2022 14:12

That's the issue @SerendipityJane and entirely wrong, people (you in this case) are linking how much someone gets paid to what they're worth which is entirely not the case (and I'm assuming I don't need to explain why).

I fear you have confused comprehension with agreement.

PeanutAnarchy · 29/08/2022 14:44

BigWoollyJumpers · 26/08/2022 14:12

Zahawi is making it very clear that more help is on the way. I just wish the media would stop catastrophising, it helps no-one. Until we know what extra help is being given, then there really is nothing to discuss.

This.

Grumpycatsmum · 29/08/2022 15:45

Think we will be okay due to house being properly insulated this year when we had our heat pump installed. We had no heating at all for 6 weeks this year (before insulation) and it was fecking freezing - even with a wood burner and electric heaters. Will be awful for those who can't put on the heating at all. And all those saying they didn't have central heating in the 70s we didn't either for quite a while. But lots of people had at least one open fire.

But like others have said above,there will be no money for trips/coffees/cinema/pub except for those we have already paid for. Small business owners are going to have a nightmare winter.

Kashmirsilver · 29/08/2022 16:17

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 11:28

That's the issue @SerendipityJane and entirely wrong, people (you in this case) are linking how much someone gets paid to what they're worth which is entirely not the case (and I'm assuming I don't need to explain why).

What is linked to how much an individual gets paid (by that particular employer for that particular role) is the value of the role not the value of the individual. I think it's easy to see that some roles add minimal value but still "need" done*.

By having a minimum wage you're forcing a business to pay more than the value of the role (again, not the person!) which skews the economics eg someone may have been happy to accept £3/hour for it, if they enjoy it and don't need the money etc but instead the employer is having to pay NMW, ultimately meaning there's less money to pay others.

By adding in these artificial levels (NMW) which of course don't work in all cases, you get caught in a spiral of having to introduce others (LW) to solve the problem but in reality they won't in all cases so more will need to be introduced.... creating a very constrained and bureaucratic market place that's difficult to operate efficiently and costly to administer (both for the employer and the "govt" ie the general public paying taxes).

*years ago whilst on holiday in Cornwall, I once saw - what looked like a student - whose job was to add the cardboard tags to each bottle of cider by manually "poking" a thread through a small hole then attaching it to the bottle and it stuck in my mind. Clearly this job isn’t essential, takes 0 skills to do, has minimal responsibly nor stress, adds limited value to the overall product yet… nowadays the business would be required to pay minimum wage (vastly more than the value the role generates) meaning they probably wouldn’t, so there’s now no easy summer job for the student to do!!

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That's a perfect example. Legislation is all in good faith of course, affecting the outcomes.

welshdee · 29/08/2022 18:43

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 09:51

"That's the cycle of the workplace. Most enter the workplace with no skills, learn, upskill, then move on. The issue with the NMW is this has slowed this process, as some less skilled jobs are overpaid, and some jobs are now underpaid. Its homogenized and bundled categories of jobs together. A large sector of employees is paid the same regardless of intrinsic value.
I honestly don't know how we remove that self-inflicted problem-its made the employment market rigid and flat for those entering employment for the first time. Moving upwards is also a problem.
Although my brother has managed to find paid employment after realizing his lifestyle business wasn't the best choice during these times. He's happier and is now planning trips and other extraneous spending rather than worrying about his income. Stabilty."

Well @Kashmirsilver !

Reference the issue being it often results in some roles being overpaid (and others underpaid), I've often wondered if it should be considered somewhat similar to how "STEM" courses are treated ie they're funded / protected more by the government.

In reality it think this could mean different "minimum wages" for different roles (with those that "contribute" to society - clearly which do / don't will be heavily debated however similar debates have been settled historically E.g. STEM - having a higher minimum wage {eg to encourage people into them} than those that don't). An alternative could be the national minimum wage applies only to certain roles that society needs to function.

I don't think any option will be palatable as someone will always be worse off / offended in either option so firmly agree society has created a rod for its own back (and I don't know what the solution is!).

It maybe also needs a reframing of what NMW is intended to cover. Given, by definition, it's the minimum someone can be paid, there probably needs to be acceptance that this amount is not going to be sufficient (on its own) to cover more than the bare minimum responsibilities (with those not being luxuries such as raising kids, owning a home, holidaying etc). Not a popular opinion I'm sure but I can't help but think we expect too much from the minimum

Wow who decides peoples jobs apparent aren't worth a proper wage just pittance?
You have a shit job don't expect to be able to pay rhe bills afford to feed yourself forget living in a house having gas and electric..
Minimum wage is rubbish people can't live on it. Simple as that your answer is cut peoples money and have nothing be ause there jobs easy not good enough?, says who... ..

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 19:02

nowadays the business would be required to pay minimum wage (vastly more than the value the role generates) meaning they probably wouldn’t, so there’s now no easy summer job for the student to do!!

minimum wage at £9.50 an hour starts at 23 years old,

£9.18 between 21-22
£6.83 between 18-20
£4.81 under 18

@TakeTheOffPisteRoute a student unless mature isn’t going to be on the same rate as an adult on NMW

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 19:04

welshdee And these will be the same people shouting about those lazy fuckers on the dole, not getting out of bed to do a decent days work.

SerendipityJane · 29/08/2022 19:05

Wow who decides peoples jobs apparent aren't worth a proper wage just pittance?

Democracy - so you and I - it seems. In two ways. Firstly, by deciding what a person needs to live on, and secondly by paying as little as possible for everything.

That's before you get into the society we have grown that despises people doing menial jobs - despite all the bunny on forums like this.

Metabigot · 29/08/2022 19:10

welshdee · 29/08/2022 18:43

Wow who decides peoples jobs apparent aren't worth a proper wage just pittance?
You have a shit job don't expect to be able to pay rhe bills afford to feed yourself forget living in a house having gas and electric..
Minimum wage is rubbish people can't live on it. Simple as that your answer is cut peoples money and have nothing be ause there jobs easy not good enough?, says who... ..

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Er, the market decides.

Not saying I agree with it but it basically does. I work in HR and even when we use a Job Evaluation system to grade a new job, it's essentially the market and the supply/demand/competition etc that decides the salary. Sometimes we may decide to pay less for a trainee, or more for someone with experience but it's essentially market forces.

welshdee · 29/08/2022 19:46

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 19:04

welshdee And these will be the same people shouting about those lazy fuckers on the dole, not getting out of bed to do a decent days work.

Exactly...

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 19:50

@welshdee as I said in my post, I recognise this is a point that would be subject to much debate however but as I also said in my post, as a society we've determined analogous previously so we've proof of concept of it being possible...

Or, playing devils advocate to demonstrate a point, why is it any harder that deciding "who has enough money to be taxed more?" Or "who is deserving of universal credit and who isn't?"... it's fundamentally no different: deciding who gets what and why, the point of my approach being, rather than have it linked solely and arbitrarily to age... let's link it to something meaningful ie value to society

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 19:55

minimum wage at £9.50 an hour starts at 23 years old,

£9.18 between 21-22
£6.83 between 18-20
£4.81 under 18

@TakeTheOffPisteRoute a student unless mature isn’t going to be on the same rate as an adult on NMW

@ivykaty44 I get that... the absolute value of NMW is irrelevant to the point (ie and for example, the role may be worth less than £4.81...)

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 19:58

@welshdee

Minimum wage is rubbish people can't live on it.

That's the point I'm trying to make... maybe people need to reframe how they think of NMW and not see it as something to live on... re-read my original post and apologies if didn't make it clear.

Lisad1231981 · 29/08/2022 20:14

Went to my parents house today. Was sorting his bills, their bill is now £350 a month!
He was talking about how he isn't going to be able to have go out for coffee anymore or buy his paper.
He goes out a few times a week, on his scooter, gets himself a coffee in a cafe and reads the paper. He is mums carer and needs a break. His social and is medically retired after an accident at work.
Just made me really sad 😢

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 22:55

TakeTheOffPisteRoute Why should anyone be demeaned in that manner, sounds rather sadistic

Blossomtoes · 29/08/2022 23:30

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 19:58

@welshdee

Minimum wage is rubbish people can't live on it.

That's the point I'm trying to make... maybe people need to reframe how they think of NMW and not see it as something to live on... re-read my original post and apologies if didn't make it clear.

That’s the entire point of having a minimum wage. If it’s not enough to live on there’s no point in having it.

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 23:34

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 22:55

TakeTheOffPisteRoute Why should anyone be demeaned in that manner, sounds rather sadistic

@ivykaty44 I'll say it again... no-one is talking about a person's value but instead what a role should be paid so a person can't be demeaned as you suggest.... 🤦‍♂️

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 23:43

being, rather than have it linked solely and arbitrarily to age... let's link it to something meaningful ie value to society

perhaphs re read what you’ve written, as it’s certainly coming across that it’s not the persons age but value to society

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 23:43

@Blossomtoes I think you might be confusing living wage with minimum wage... easily done I'm sure, somehow?

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 23:54

ivykaty44 · 29/08/2022 23:43

being, rather than have it linked solely and arbitrarily to age... let's link it to something meaningful ie value to society

perhaphs re read what you’ve written, as it’s certainly coming across that it’s not the persons age but value to society

@ivykaty44

To be clear the points I'm making are:
A person's worth isn't linked to what they get paid
Under our national minimum wage, what a person on the minimum wage gets paid is currently linked to age (arbitrarily, with the minimum being applied across all roles independent of the role)
I suggest two-fold:

if we're to have a minimum wage, it's targeted to those roles that add value to society (and likely much higher than current) rather than all - for the reasons I've previously mentioned
people re-frame how they view a minimum wage to a wage is does almost what it says on the tin: ie provides the minimum and thus is not a steady long term option that covers luxuries such as holidays, home ownership, kids etc (given these aren't minimums). Again for clarity, if not saying "people don't deserve these, of course they do, just that if they want them then they (or whatever financial system they operate e.g. with a partner) will have to bring in more than the minimum (by definition...)

Hope this helps and appreciate it may be an emotive subject for some but hopefully one that can still be discussed and debated.

ivykaty44 · 30/08/2022 00:04

Your ideal of a NMW leaves people unable to fund them self’s and reliant on the welfare state, paid for by society.

id rather people had a wage that didn’t leave them reliant on welfare after working 40 hrs a week and they could pay private rents, heating and eating - which presently someone on NMW will struggle.

a society which has a large disparity isn’t a society I want to live in

blahblahblahspoons · 30/08/2022 05:22

Tigerblue4 · 29/08/2022 09:01

The problem with too many people seeking higher incomes/looking for promotion is that if those jobs are around, who are going to do those essential jobs that we rely on, cleaners, shop workers, nursery assistants, lunchtime supervisors, care assistant etc. You move up the scale slightly, and who's going to drive that bus you take to work. We need people to do those lower paid jobs.

I've done a number of jobs in my life from cleaner and carer to relatively high flying executive and I can tell you that the 'lower paid' jobs are the ones in which I worked hardest. Currently, having returned from being a SAHM I'm doing an office job being paid about half what my DH (with no career gap) earns and I work far, far harder than he does. For a lot less money.

I think that 'personal responsibility' could extend to employers paying proper wages. Pay rises have been artificially suppressed so the rich 1% can get richer for years. Wages have been falling in real terms since 2010, quite precipitously.

For an example, nurses are essential, they have had below inflation pay rises for years and there are 40k vacancies. It's supposed to be the case in a free market that if there's vacancies, then you pay more, but instead of doing this the government has cut and cut until the reality is that there aren't enough nurses. Nurses on their income alone can't afford to live a reasonable life (.e.g where I live you can't rent a single bed flat within a reasonable commute of the hospital on a Nurse average salary), and we're relying on imported nurses and the very young for the NHS to stagger on with even the semblance of providing care.

Problem is, with the crisis looming, those Nurses from abroad will all be going home. We've seen with fruit pickers work in the UK is becoming less and less attractive as our currency falls against theirs. It's only worked up to now because people could work here for a few years (or for part of the year) and earn what was - in their local currency - a lot of money. But if their wages won't even cover the most basic living costs in a shared house here, they won't come.

It's about time people were paid properly. This has started to happen a bit with the lorry drivers, but wages need to rise a lot and the government (all parties I believe, not just the Tories) have ignored this reality because they're the 1% that benefit from things as they are.

It's a joke that so many MPs have second jobs, board positions etc - it suggests a lot of them don't do their MP job properly. People working jobs like paramedics, nurses couldn't do second jobs even if they wanted to, they just don't have the physical capacity and time.

blahblahblahspoons · 30/08/2022 05:23

Plus also, if people are living in unheated houses, how physically and mentally fit do you think the workforce will be?

People won't be able to do more hours even if they wanted to. The hospitals will fill up and more and more people will be ill.

blahblahblahspoons · 30/08/2022 05:26

TakeTheOffPisteRoute · 29/08/2022 23:54

@ivykaty44

To be clear the points I'm making are:
A person's worth isn't linked to what they get paid
Under our national minimum wage, what a person on the minimum wage gets paid is currently linked to age (arbitrarily, with the minimum being applied across all roles independent of the role)
I suggest two-fold:

if we're to have a minimum wage, it's targeted to those roles that add value to society (and likely much higher than current) rather than all - for the reasons I've previously mentioned
people re-frame how they view a minimum wage to a wage is does almost what it says on the tin: ie provides the minimum and thus is not a steady long term option that covers luxuries such as holidays, home ownership, kids etc (given these aren't minimums). Again for clarity, if not saying "people don't deserve these, of course they do, just that if they want them then they (or whatever financial system they operate e.g. with a partner) will have to bring in more than the minimum (by definition...)

Hope this helps and appreciate it may be an emotive subject for some but hopefully one that can still be discussed and debated.

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This is ridiculous. So should people sell or kill their children that they had when they were earning a lot but because of say disability or redundancy now can't do that job anymore?

SerendipityJane · 30/08/2022 07:37

This is ridiculous. So should people sell or kill their children that they had when they were earning a lot but because of say disability or redundancy now can't do that job anymore?

So glad to see some people are getting it. Truss for PM ! Let Liz Lead !