To think db and his gf should put thier children above saving the planet???

[lillycat]

My db (32) has always been a bit of a drifter, he has never really held down a job or anything and travels a lot round the country. It was never really an issue for me, he is an adult and can do what he likes, but he fell out with our parents years ago over it. He has recently been trying to make things up with then and has been to visit, and brought his new gf who has two ds from two fathers. She is younger (24) and has a council flat but spends most of the time living in a van with her ds who are 5 and 3.
Her and db are now traveling around together and seem to be spanding most of their time on road protests (I didnt even know there were any anymore but they have found some) and things like that, and doing anti war and anti nuclear campaigning - db gets arrested every now and then which can't be good for young boys to see as an example imo.

Anyway me and my parents are a bit concerned about her ds - they don't go to school obviuosly but they dont get taught by their mum either it seems - the 5yo can't write his name even. The children are filthy as well, dressed in tatty old clothes all the time and have quite long hair which does look lovely but needs washing and brushing which doesn't happen really. Both db and gf have a dog so the children are sharing their beds in the van with two dogs. They are lovely children, really bright and sweet but they swear a lot which the mum doesn't seem to mind and they have no routines at all- they get taken to parties and kept up late. Thir mum still has a double buggy that they sleep in if they are out late. Also they are vegan and are both quite small, but they do get fed healthy food and she doesnt let them have sweets and fizzy pop. She seems to worry about strange things - I'd be more worried about my dc getting an education than being vegan iyswim?

Dh thinks its none of our business to say anyhting as the kids are obviously loved and looked after, just not to the same standards we keep . But I just cant help thinking that once you ahve kids its time to grow up and put them first?

dh and i have this fantasy of taking our children [one not born yet] on a trip through Europe for a year in a camper van, and 'home' educating them at least for that year. Ok we'll probably wash more but I think there is a lot to be said for an upbringing that defies convention, as long as the children are loved and well fed. Toys and computers are compensation for the things that children lack these days anyway, free time, wide spaces, adventure. I would be a bit worried about them not getting enough nutrition, but there is little you can do about that. Your best chance is to be supportive and a good friend to your brother and his gf, and then when you have their trust, to ask [kindly] after their diet, etc.

I was 14 when one of my friends ODed on smack. And I grew up in an extremely privileged middle class home and went to an independent school.

IMO tight knit communities are much more likely to self-police than the fractured society we live in where all kinds of abuse goes on behind closed doors but as long as the kids are well-turned out, everyone turns a blind eye.

Yes loads of drugs in public schools!

On the education side.
Only children who are registered pupils at school need to be deregistered from school if their parents wish to home educate.
If they have never been to school, they need not be known by the LA and do not need to inform anyone of their intentions.

Many home educators do not follow any formal method of learning-many are autonomous and follow the children's interests.
Quite often these children do not learn to read until much later than schooled children.
Autonomous/informal education is a very efficient way of educating. These children may well be receiving this type of education, where they are learning through living life.
There is an article about comparing formal and informal home education here

If her mother is a serious vegan than she will be fully aware of the nutritional needs of her children and will be offering them a completely healthy well balanced diet.

We are autonomous home educators and it has been very successful, our children have now been successful in getting their A levels or reached the level where they will begin an OU degree course.
Two of the children are vegan-as are many home educators and have taught me how to eat a much healthier diet!

Just because this family doesn't have a conventional lifestyle, doesn't make it any less valid.

I'm just thinking..lucky children to have such a free life.
Plenty of time for them to be "normal" in the future if they want to be.
Bet they don't suffer from allergies or have many illnesses.
AB

Well ok there are lots of different ways to bring up your dc and make a success of it.
I don't think db or gf are drug users - db did smoke cannabis when he was younger but has stopped smoking at all a few years ago.
I don't really think the children are in any danger, just like I said, maybe not getting all the opportunities they deserve.
I am looking into some literacy materials made specially for traveller children and maybe order some, if I can think of a way to give them to gf without it looking rude.
I dont want people to think I'm nasty and judgmental - I just never really thought that people carried on living like that after they had children.

Why is it 'missing out on opportunities' for a five-year-old not to read?

It's actually really only the UK that somehow thinks this is normal.

And this child may have learning challenges.

My daughter has, although she appears normal to others.

Why is it 'missing out on opportunities' for a five-year-old not to read?

It's actually really only the UK that somehow thinks this is normal.

And this child may have learning challenges.

My daughter has, although she appears normal to others.

Is being arrested for protesting against something you feel strongly about always a bad thing? It's not exactly burglary or GBH is it - you don't say that he has been prosecuted even, just arrested.

Some people - Nelson Mandela for example - have not only been arrested but spent years in prison for breaking the laws of the land they live in. I would consider him an excellent role model for my kids.

I really don't think you need to be providing them with educational material - the oldest is only 5! Maybe if they were a few years older there could be cause for concern, but not yet. Most travellers know exactly how important education is and want the best for their children, the same as anyone else.

But if you (or anyone else) would like to inform yourself on traveller education and the materials out there here are some links...

Here for activities and printable books.

Good for information and links

Time Travellers website for children

Travellers School Charity

And just as another point of interest, this is the parenting section of a forum for people living 'alternative' lifestyles, including lots of travellers.

Seems there are many of the same concerns and questions as on MN

I think it would be a great way of living if you can be financially independent doing so.

Of course you're being judgemental! You've decided her kids are destined to be forever illiterate because the 5 year old can't write her name. And despite being told by lots of different people that education doesn't start until 7 in most of the rest of Europe, you've decided to present this woman (whose children aren't even your brothers) with literacy material.

Can you not see how patronising and judgemental that is? If I were you, I'd stay out of it. Read the links SMS has posted by all means but please, please don't give any literacy guides to this poor woman.

Stop being so hard on the OP! She sounds very nice and concerned.

Lily I can see why you find it strange and I don't think its fair for posters to say "its none of your business". Whenever children are concerned (especially if you see them often), I think their welfare is the 'whole villages' business...however until there's actually something that is definitely hurting them or affecting them badly you shouldn't worry yourself. Maybe its a teensy bit of envy, cos you're all 'responsible' and they don't seem to be.
Have you spoken much to the mum? have you really got to know her?

I think that you need to separate in your mind the parenting styles you dont particularly like, from any actual concerns you have for the kids physical and emotional wellbeing. From your post it seems like you know they are very contented and loved kids, your concerns are cleanliness, clothing, education and lack of routine. Many on here have pointed out that a bit of dirt is not serious for a child, and i personally think as long as the kids are warm enough it really doesnt matter if the clothes are scruffy. Actually, as a nation i think we spend too much on labels for kids to wear when we know they are going to roll in mud as soon as they get a chance!!
The education issue has been nicely explained by other posters on here, and to be fair, even if the 5 yr old was in a school that would be no guarantee that he could write his name anyway. Mine still struggles with his!! School is one valid educational route, not the only one and not always the best one. And as for all the travelling, I think we need to listen to the adult posters on here who have PERSONALLY experienced it as children, it sounds a wonderful and rich way to grow up. my db has the polar opposite parenting style to mine in almost every issue. Sometimes we come to blows over it, but at the end of the day we each have to take a step back and remember that as long as the kids are not in any harm, we are entitled to bring them up according to our own convictions.
by the way, as others have said, a nice clean middle class upbringing is no protector of drugs/addictions etc. We had that upbringing and have sadly buried a childhood friend who o'd on heroin and several more who are in rehab and or AA etc. Life can be cruel and painful wherever we live. esp if we feel we are not personally suited to that middle class lifestyle and want to live in an 'alternative' way, we can sometimes maybe feel suffocated by the upbringing we have had and all its constraints of money, trappings, image etc. This in itself can lead to drink drug addictions.
but to encourage you, i think its important that we all always keep our eyes open to any signs of abuse in ALL the children we mingle with, whether their home is a house or a bus or etc etc.... thats absolutely the responsible attitude to have.

other posters who had unconventional childhoods- seen this?

BTW am especially loving the "the kids are obviously loved and looked after, just not to the same standards we keep" quote. Because I would put money on it that she would say EXACTLY the same about the OP, but is perhaps too polite

Oh and I think people are confusing the general travelling community with the protesting/activist community. There are squats and there are squats. There are people who have actively chosen to live an alternative, simpler lifestyle, and there are people who can actually not function in society and so drop out (and are usually being failed by mental health services) . There are, seperately to this, older, family communites of travellers.

It sounds very much as though the OP's brother is one of these articulate protesters. IME a pretty high percentage of them are university educated and there is an...interesting proportion of public school kids in there as well.

Regardless, these are people with enough social responsibility to actually do something about the world-aside from perhaps some token recycling, whats the OP doing? This is the world that our kids are going to inherit.

OP, spend a week with them in their community, you might learn a lot!

"I am looking into some literacy materials made specially for traveller children and maybe order some, if I can think of a way to give them to gf without it looking rude."

As long as you are prepared for her to give it you right back!
I would!

My sister has totally different viewpoints on education to us, and when we first started home educating she purchased some educational material that her children were using, for our youngest.
So I showed it to our dd and asked if she wanted to do it, she of course said "No why on earth would I want that?" she was and is, happy learning totally autonomously, without any formal lessons, work books or literacy material, at all.
So we gave it back to my sister.

With the wealth of opportunities the gf is offering these children, she may well be home educating them autonomously and may well never use any literacy material.

I don't have 'educational materials' for my two year old DS. I just talk to him and play with him lots. His favourite toys are brooms and toothbrushes and the cats. He is already incredibly articulate. Kids don't necessarily need all the plastic shit you describe. The children you talk about seem to have parents who talk to them and love them and give them new experiences. That's another way to learn, rather than sitting in an overheated front room pressing buttons to make some expensive bit of plastic say inane things in a stupid American accent. Kids don't need half the things we imagine they need. Leave them kids alone.

Oh, and I'd be far more worried about the prevalence of, say, crack, on some of our local estates than I would be in a traveller community.

I want to return to this to tell you about what has just happened to someone I know.

She has two dc (7 and 2), by two men. She has been a traveller for years. She lived quite happily on the road with them, doing a fantastic job of being their mum. They are lovely kids, and are very much loved. They are part of a community, they have never known anyhting else.

Then the father of the youngest decided to involve Social Services, mainly to get at their mum - he is a raging alcoholic who has never shown much interest in his child.

Their mum has now had to move off the site in the woods where her children were born. She is now living in a council house on an estate where she knows nobody. The neighbours call her a dirty pikey in the street. Her support network is now miles away. They have had to give away the family dog as it had never lived in a house and was chewing everything and unhappy. The kids miss their friends and the freedom they had.

But hey, the kids can have a bath every bloody night.

Does anyone really think thats an improvement for the lives of that family?

I am boiling with rage at the fuckwittedness of it.

Stripey directed me to this thread and I must say I too am shocked.

We live an 'alternative' lifestyle, and though it is in our own house, and we have jobs which have allowed us to buy it, we still have the philosophys of travellers. I refuse to use chemicals, we recycle religiously and actually discuss before we buy anything. No shopping sprees for us.

I have photos of myself pregnant at stop the war marches, I still take the DC to protests I feel strongly about, and they come to festivals with us and sleep in tents and get muddy and enjoy it as we all should.

I think if any health worker has an issue with how people live they need to actually ask them, but sadly they don't seem too bothered these days and so make snap judgements which can ultimately cause more harm than good.

Well, the point is that it comes down to what people think children really need.

Love, shelter/warmth, food, a community that cares about them, an education far broader than that provided by a school... they had all those.

Slight hyjack: DevilWearsPrimark, I've noticed several posts of yours and you really do intrigue me. Just thought I'd say. In a good way, I must add.

I want to intrigue someone

You are all so dang cliquey